Tuvix

[pimp]

Hello

Today i was watching the episode Tuvix and i was left trying to figure out if Captain Janeway made the right decision to forcibly take Tuvix down to the medic lab to have him separated to get back Tuvok and Neelix, did she have the right to make that decision??? did she effectively sentence Tuvix to death????

At the end i felt that it was a right but also at the same time the wrong decision it depends on how you look at it, Very tough to call.

But what do you people think?????

 

[exodus]

Tuvix was ugly!

He had those demon looking eyes

His hair was falling out

He had that ruddy skin w/ spots

Ick!

He looked like an abomination created from radioactive fall out.

Which could be the point, that he was an abomination and didn't deserve to live as he was.

My vote goes to Janeway.

 

[xerxes99]

I always thought that Janeway was completely in the wrong for this decision. I don't view it that much differently than if Tuvix were a child of Neelix and Tuvok. The question comes down to if it is right to kill the (self-aware) child in order to bring back the parents from the dead.

If Tuvix had volunteered that would be a different story, but he was murdered in cold blood. I always thought it would have been interesting for the writers to show what Neelix and Tuvok thought about the decision, epsecially if Neelix had thought of it as a murder.

 

[jgdst]

Tuvix was ugly!

He had those demon looking eyes

His hair was falling out

He had that ruddy skin w/ spots

Ick!

He looked like an abomination created from radioactive fall out.

Which could be the point, that he was an abomination and didn't deserve to live as he was.

My vote goes to Janeway.

Lol Tuvix wasn't a hotty so he got the lethal injection?

I honestly can't decide if Janeway did the right thing or not... The way the crew turns against him at the end of the episode gets me every time, and the way he's almost forcibly carried to sickbay. Not the crew's proudest moment.

On the other hand, Tuvok had a family, and both he and Neelix had an individual purpose to fulfill on the ship.

Was Tuvix stating his desire to live as both Neelix and Tuvok, or purely as a new life form?

It's not often Voyager gave us these little ethical battles, but when they do, they do it well, and this particular one never leaves me with a sense of 'everything turned out okay in the end'...

What I want to know is when the two were separated, whose DNA did the flower remain attached to? Cos you don't see it rematerialise on the biobed

 

[exodus]

Tuvix was ugly!

He had those demon looking eyes

His hair was falling out

He had that ruddy skin w/ spots

Ick!

He looked like an abomination created from radioactive fall out.

Which could be the point, that he was an abomination and didn't deserve to live as he was.

My vote goes to Janeway.

Lol Tuvix wasn't a hotty so he got the lethal injection?

I honestly can't decide if Janeway did the right thing or not... The way the crew turns against him at the end of the episode gets me every time, and the way he's almost forcibly carried to sickbay. Not the crew's proudest moment.

On the other hand, Tuvok had a family, and both he and Neelix had an individual purpose to fulfill on the ship.

Was Tuvix stating his desire to live as both Neelix and Tuvok, or purely as a new life form?

It's not often Voyager gave us these little ethical battles, but when they do, they do it well, and this particular one never leaves me with a sense of 'everything turned out okay in the end'...

What I want to know is when the two were separated, whose DNA did the flower remain attached to? Cos you don't see it rematerialise on the biobed

Actually I was serious about the part of him looking like an abomination. Due to that, I don't think he was meant to exist. He looked un-natural.

 

[pimp]

Tuvix was ugly!

He had those demon looking eyes

His hair was falling out

He had that ruddy skin w/ spots

Ick!

He looked like an abomination created from radioactive fall out.

Which could be the point, that he was an abomination and didn't deserve to live as he was.

My vote goes to Janeway.

Lol Tuvix wasn't a hotty so he got the lethal injection?

I honestly can't decide if Janeway did the right thing or not... The way the crew turns against him at the end of the episode gets me every time, and the way he's almost forcibly carried to sickbay. Not the crew's proudest moment.

On the other hand, Tuvok had a family, and both he and Neelix had an individual purpose to fulfill on the ship.

Was Tuvix stating his desire to live as both Neelix and Tuvok, or purely as a new life form?

It's not often Voyager gave us these little ethical battles, but when they do, they do it well, and this particular one never leaves me with a sense of 'everything turned out okay in the end'...

What I want to know is when the two were separated, whose DNA did the flower remain attached to? Cos you don't see it rematerialise on the biobed

Actually I was serious about the part of him looking like an abomination. Due to that, I don't think he was meant to exist. He looked un-natural.

I bet if Tuvix was a blond with big breasts you would feel differently about the situation (lol bad image in my head atm)

 

[jgdst]

Lol Tuvix wasn't a hotty so he got the lethal injection?

I honestly can't decide if Janeway did the right thing or not... The way the crew turns against him at the end of the episode gets me every time, and the way he's almost forcibly carried to sickbay. Not the crew's proudest moment.

On the other hand, Tuvok had a family, and both he and Neelix had an individual purpose to fulfill on the ship.

Was Tuvix stating his desire to live as both Neelix and Tuvok, or purely as a new life form?

It's not often Voyager gave us these little ethical battles, but when they do, they do it well, and this particular one never leaves me with a sense of 'everything turned out okay in the end'...

What I want to know is when the two were separated, whose DNA did the flower remain attached to? Cos you don't see it rematerialise on the biobed

Actually I was serious about the part of him looking like an abomination. Due to that, I don't think he was meant to exist. He looked un-natural.

I bet if Tuvix was a blond with big breasts you would feel differently about the situation (lol bad image in my head atm)

lol! If Tuvok + Neelix = Blond with big breasts, I'd be first in line with the hyposrpay... Unless you meant a female? In which case, yeah, totally different

Wait a minute... that's Seven of Nine isn't it?

 

[exodus]

Lol Tuvix wasn't a hotty so he got the lethal injection?

I honestly can't decide if Janeway did the right thing or not... The way the crew turns against him at the end of the episode gets me every time, and the way he's almost forcibly carried to sickbay. Not the crew's proudest moment.

On the other hand, Tuvok had a family, and both he and Neelix had an individual purpose to fulfill on the ship.

Was Tuvix stating his desire to live as both Neelix and Tuvok, or purely as a new life form?

It's not often Voyager gave us these little ethical battles, but when they do, they do it well, and this particular one never leaves me with a sense of 'everything turned out okay in the end'...

What I want to know is when the two were separated, whose DNA did the flower remain attached to? Cos you don't see it rematerialise on the biobed

Actually I was serious about the part of him looking like an abomination. Due to that, I don't think he was meant to exist. He looked un-natural.

I bet if Tuvix was a blond with big breasts you would feel differently about the situation (lol bad image in my head atm)

Would she still have bad skin w/ her hair falling out?

 

[pimp]

Actually I was serious about the part of him looking like an abomination. Due to that, I don't think he was meant to exist. He looked un-natural.

I bet if Tuvix was a blond with big breasts you would feel differently about the situation (lol bad image in my head atm)

Would she still have bad skin w/ her hair falling out?

No, the perfect bitch

 

[exodus]

I bet if Tuvix was a blond with big breasts you would feel differently about the situation (lol bad image in my head atm)

Would she still have bad skin w/ her hair falling out?

No, the perfect bitch

Well, if she were prefect, she wouldn't be a bitch.

 

[Claudia]

I always thought that Janeway was completely in the wrong for this decision. I don't view it that much differently than if Tuvix were a child of Neelix and Tuvok. The question comes down to if it is right to kill the (self-aware) child in order to bring back the parents from the dead.

If Tuvix had volunteered that would be a different story, but he was murdered in cold blood. I always thought it would have been interesting for the writers to show what Neelix and Tuvok thought about the decision, epsecially if Neelix had thought of it as a murder.

I absolutely agree with everything you said - especially the last sentence. I'd say I doubt that even Tuvok would find Janeway's decision logical.

On the other hand, Tuvok had a family, and both he and Neelix had an individual purpose to fulfill on the ship.

Was Tuvix stating his desire to live as both Neelix and Tuvok, or purely as a new life form?

IMO that's not even the point. When Tuvix was created Tuvok and Neelix were in fact dead, they did no longer exist as self-aware beings. Tuvix was alive, he was self-aware and had the right to continue to live. Sorry, but if family and purpose are the only reason for someone to be allowed to live or be saved then many people nowadays wouldn't be worth saving...

Perhaps it would have been different if they had left Tuvix in stasis - but by allowing him to interact with the crew he became more than just the sum of his parts, he became a unique individual. And no one has the right to sacrifice someone just because you liked the other 2 better or they were more part of the crew etc.

Honestly, I can't even watch that episode without getting angry. Only a hologram actually knows what's *right* in this instance, and Janeway being judge and executioner in one person, the crew being the jury - and all of them declaring Tuvix lacking of something that he can't be held culpable of...

One of the worst episodes, from an ethical point of view, in the whole history of Star Trek.

 

[exodus]

^^If they were dead, there wouldn't even be a chance at bringing them back.

The hologram is programmed and bound by the Hippocratic Oath as every doctor is. He can't perform any action on anyone against their consent. At this point in time in the series he doesn't have a choice, he's programmed to obey it.

It's one of the best eps. in the series because it is controversial which causes conversation and debate to this day.

Janeway is neither right nor wrong, it was a catch 22 no win situation. Whatever she chose, someone was going to loose. Janeway in the end would have to live with whatever choice she made for the rest of her life.

 

[bintak]

I don't see a moral dilemma here. You have an engineering casualty that you need to repair.

Once Tuvix is rectified then you jettison the defective component part, Neelix, out an airlock, and keep the functioning half, Tuvok.

Where is the downside in this?

 

[Claudia]

^^If they were dead, there wouldn't even be a chance at bringing them back.

At that moment they didn't exist any longer - Tuvix did. And Janeway doesn't have the justification of it being an accident that robbed Tuvix of his life when she pushed the button. She killed him - that's all there is to say about it.

The hologram is programmed and bound by the Hippocratic Oath as every doctor is. He can't perform any action on anyone against their consent. At this point in time in the series he doesn't have a choice, he's programmed to obey it.

And that's the sorry thing about it.

 

[exodus]

^^If they were dead, there wouldn't even be a chance at bringing them back.

At that moment they didn't exist any longer - Tuvix did. And Janeway doesn't have the justification of it being an accident that robbed Tuvix of his life when she pushed the button. She killed him - that's all there is to say about it.

Really, Tuvix stated: "They aren't dead, they exist within me."

Janeway has every right, she the Captain of a Starship lost without Federation support. That makes her the leader of a community and has the right of judge in situations such as this. Tuvix at the start of the ep. agreed that if a "cure" was found, he'd willing take it to have Tuvok & Neelix back. Didn't we learn for TNG from Riker to Troi, that part of being in command is being able to order an Officer to his death if need be?

Didn't Tuvok thank her at the end?


Sorry but there is clearly far more to say about it.

 

[Claudia]

Really, Tuvix stated: "They aren't dead, they exist within me."

Meaning that he was made up of the two characters - but he was his own person, just like a child is his/her own person and not a sum of DNA from father and mother (which they might take back if they want...)

Janeway has every right, she the Captain of a Starship lost without Federation support. That makes her the leader of a community and has the right of judge in situations such as this. Tuvix at the start of the ep. agreed that if a "cure" was found, he'd willing take it to have Tuvok & Neelix back. Didn't we learn for TNG from Riker to Troi, that part of being in command is being able to order an Officer to his death if need be?

Yes, if that command makes sense and is for the ship's welfare - but in this case it wasn't. If what you're saying is true, then Tuvix had the knowledge and ability to serve as security officer - he has everything to offer Tuvok had (and Neelix had for that matter).

But she didn't decide on reasonable grounds but on the basis that "everyone would like Tuvok and Neelix back" - what kind of reason is that to kill someone. Because in this case it was killing someone - because if in Tuvix (in your interpretation) Tuvok and Neelix live on, one could argue Tuvix is lost by the "cure". There's nothing left of him in either Tuvok or Neelix - it's just the parts again.

Sorry but there is clearly far more to say about it.

Of course, there's much to say about it - but, at least, nothing that would make Janeway's decision remotely right.

A very similar episode was Similitude... also much to discuss, also nothing that really justifies Archer's actions... But it's a very interesting moral problem because then they went even further IIRC, creating Sim just for the sole purpose of killing him to save Tucker. Again, I wouldn't oppose if Sim were left in stasis or otherwise not able to "live" in the real sense of the word - interact, find you own personality etc.

It's this ambiguity that I criticize: Either Janeway puts an emphasis on finding a solution - then Tuvix certainly shouldn't be treated as if he were replacing Tuvok/Neelix and as if he were even welcome, but he should be confined to quarters or even put into stasis. Or Janeway lets Tuvix find his place among the crew. But she can't do both. And I guess, Tuvix didn't really agree to being killed. (And such an agreement wouldn't be valid in court anyway - at least not in the law system here.)

 

[Unicron]

I think the VOY writers created a good ethical dilemma, in that many fans are still unsure and arguing about it. I think Tuvix certainly had some valid points in his favor, and he genuinely felt he had a right to survive. But he wanted to do so at the expense of the two people whose fusion created him, and all of the relationships and abilities that those individuals possessed. The whole "they were both dead" argument doesn't really wash with me, since you can argue that Tuvix was equally nonexistent before the incident. Janeway had to decide which set of relationships were more valid - those of Tuvix, or those of Neelix and Tuvok. That Kes and the other crew were ready to back her up seems to show that they cared about Neelix and Tuvok as well.

* shrugs * I don't know that there's really any correct solution. I personally understand Janeway's final decision and don't have many problems with it, and I don't think it's enough to say that because Tuvix was "born," his continued existence automatically trumps any possibility that his "parents" should be allowed to live again. Besides, how do we know that nothing of Tuvix survived in both of them?

 

[kimc]

[Of course, there's much to say about it - but, at least, nothing that would make Janeway's decision remotely right.

Well here's hoping if I ever find myself the victim of a starship transporter accident I have a captain like Janeway who would be willing to make the hard call to bring me back rather than a captain like you.

Look, it's not as if Janeway was yelling "Die, sucker die!" while injecting Tuvix. It was a call that was so tough that in the end she was the only one who could make it.

As Tuvix said, Tuvok and Neelix were alive in him. Keeping Tuvix would have meant that Tuvok and Neelix would have spend the remainder of thier lives trapped inside Tuvix - becoming less and less able to express themselves as Tuvix continued developing his combined personality.

The reverse would also be true. Tuvix remains alive within Tuvok and Neelix. In fact, there was a later episode where it's mentioned that Tuvok and Neelix retain memories of their time as Tuvix but the name of it escapes me at the moment.

 

[Claudia]

[Of course, there's much to say about it - but, at least, nothing that would make Janeway's decision remotely right.

Well here's hoping if I ever find myself the victim of a starship transporter accident I have a captain like Janeway who would be willing to make the hard call to bring me back rather than a captain like you.

I guess, if you're concerned that's your prerogative. But actually, I think Janeway is one of the worst captains I've seen yet in the different shows (not only Trek) - and not just because of that decision -, only Archer is still worse but that's not saying much since I tend to ignore Enterprise whereever I can. *g*

I think it's an ends justify the means-dilemma - and Janeway went over the line.

 

[exodus]

[Of course, there's much to say about it - but, at least, nothing that would make Janeway's decision remotely right.

Well here's hoping if I ever find myself the victim of a starship transporter accident I have a captain like Janeway who would be willing to make the hard call to bring me back rather than a captain like you.

I guess, if you're concerned that's your prerogative. But actually, I think Janeway is one of the worst captains I've seen yet in the different shows (not only Trek) - and not just because of that decision -, only Archer is still worse but that's not saying much since I tend to ignore Enterprise whereever I can. *g*

I think it's an ends justify the means-dilemma - and Janeway went over the line.

While it's your opinion, I do love it when people say Janeway is the worse captain, somehow ignoring Picard & Sisko's self rightous prejudice and often intolerance of those not in their immediate circle of friends and/or the fact that Sisko himself was involved in a murder............and covered it up. Janeway kept everything on recond and was more of a "man" than both of them by being willing to face the consequences of her actions.


The fact also is, Tuvok was one of Janeways best friends. Just like Seven, she wasn't willing to let him go. I would like to think if given a choice, we'd all fight for those we love over that of a stranger.

Could you let your best friend die?