Tuvix

[McCoy]

Tuvix wasn't killed. His essence was simply divided between two other beings. He lived on in both of them.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Tuvix wasn't killed. His essence was simply divided between two other beings. He lived on in both of them.

Define what essence is and explain how it survived.

Was this essence was the same, or similar as the essence of Tuvok and Neelix that survived within Tuvix than Tuvix living wasn't killing Tuvok or Neelix by npt having the procedure done. If that is the case than Janeway forced a being to have a medical procedure against his will (even if he did live on in the others). Even today doctors are not allowed to perform operations on sane adults against their will - it is considered unethical because a person has a right to his own body. Tuvix had a right to decline the procedure.

 

[Unicron]

This is the same Kes who dumped Neelix a few epsiodes later?

No-one right to life is based on how popular they are.

Yeah, woman are picky. I'm not denying that Tuvix had rights as an individual, or that Janeway's choice could be seen as violating those rights. All I'm saying is that once the option was presented to restore Tuvok and Neelix, then that meant their rights as individuals would be restored along with their separate existence. And they could not be ignored solely in favor of Tuvix's continued existence. To have not considered those rights would be, at the least, very disrespectful to them. It comes down to this possibility meaning they're not necessarily dead, gone, whatever.

Course, one could also argue that Tuvix didn't die anyway, his "halves" were just separated again.

Even today doctors are not allowed to perform operations on sane adults against their will - it is considered unethical because a person has a right to his own body. Tuvix had a right to decline the procedure.

Yes, he did have that right. And Janeway superseded it as captain, which she had the authority to do, because she felt she was acting to restore two lives. Just as she acted on Seven of Nine's behalf when her body started to reject her Borg implants, and she would have died without treatment. At that point Seven would have volunteered for death, not yet being ready to make decisions on that level as an individual. Janeway's reasoning was clear to the Doctor, that she would make those decisions until Seven could do so herself.

 

[Miss Chicken]

For Tuvok and Neelix to have rights equal to Tuvix it would have to be proven that they were sentient when Tuvix existed.

Course, one could also argue that Tuvix didn't die anyway, his "halves" were just separated again.

Even if that is so a procedure was performed on Tuvix against his will. The Doctor knew this was unethical and declined to do it.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Just as she acted on Seven of Nine's behalf when her body started to reject her Borg implants, and she would have died without treatment. At that point Seven would have volunteered for death, not yet being ready to make decisions on that level as an individual. Janeway's reasoning was clear to the Doctor, that she would make those decisions until Seven could do so herself.

The difference was that, at that point, it could be argued that Seven wwas not a sane person and therefore Janeway could make the decisions. There was IMO no doubt that Tuvix was sane.

 

[Claudia]

Course, one could also argue that Tuvix didn't die anyway, his "halves" were just separated again.

But that's exactly where the problems begin - Tuvix was no longer just the sum of the two halves. He was his own being, made his own experiences, interacted with the crew etc. Granted, at the beginning when he was created you're right... but no longer at the time he was killed.

 

[Jadzia]

Well, ethics can certainly be applied to history, and the lessons that people like Janeway draw from it, both their personal history and their larger history (i.e. that of Earth, of the Federation, and so forth). That humans on Earth at one point waged wars of conquest and hatred would seem just as ethically wrong to Janeway as it does to us in the real world.

Don't understand why you said that, but yeah, we can learn from the past.

That life exists shouldn't be the sole criteria for determining whether it's worth saving or not. If it were, then nobody who was suffering in horrible pain would have the right to ask for death. Quinn would have had no right to request that his immortality come to an end, even though it had become nothing but a burden to him.

I never said that. I worded it as "a right to life". Just as you have aright to vote, and a right to refuse medical treatment. Right doesn't mean "no choice" it means "you have sole choice". If Tuvix chooses life, then he has that right. The ethical action of others is to respect that. It doesn't rule out suicide. Was that not obvious?

the fact that Tuvix's "birth" was accidental does not make it ethical, since it required Tuvok and Neelix to be "killed."

To be unethical it requires intent, either directly (malice) or indirectly (a deliberate neglect). It was accidental. Ethics has nothing to say about Tuvix's creation.

That Tuvix was a unique entity is not in question, but as a combination of those two individuals, I very much dispute the claim that he had no ethical obligation to them or to their relationships with the rest of the crew.

If we're to accept the logic that killing Tuvix is unethical to revive two "dead" crewmembers, then logically his birth must be just as unethical since it couldn't have happened without those deaths.

That ain't logic. Nor is it true.

It's an understandable reaction, but it's also a selfish one.

It's also his right.

 

[Unicron]

For Tuvok and Neelix to have rights equal to Tuvix it would have to be proven that they were sentient when Tuvix existed.

According to Tuvix, they both existed as a part of him and both later said they remembered their joint existence as Tuvix, as least to some degree. I think that's the best confirmation we have of their being considered sentient for this purpose.

Even if that is so a procedure was performed on Tuvix against his will. The Doctor knew this was unethical and declined to do it.

So was the procedure to save Seven, and the Doctor had no problem with it once Janeway explained her reasoning. Seven was not at a stage where she could have made good decisions about her status as an individual. Janeway acted to protect her life, even though Seven would have chosen otherwise, and thus didn't violate Seven's personal rights in a huge way.

The difference was that, at that point, it could be argued that Seven wwas not a sane person and therefore Janeway could make the decisions. There was IMO no doubt that Tuvix was sane.

I don't think Seven's sanity was in question, but I do agree her thinking could be considered impaired. Tuvix's was not, but he still placed himself first above the rest of the crew, and was unwilling to consider that his "death" might be for a larger good. He only gave in when it became obvious that no one except the Doctor (whose decision was based primarily on raw ethics) would support him.

But that's exactly where the problems begin - Tuvix was no longer just the sum of the two halves. He was his own being, made his own experiences, interacted with the crew etc. Granted, at the beginning when he was created you're right... but no longer at the time he was killed.

That's true. But that doesn't mean his right to survive was more valid than that of his "parents" or that their right to the same, given the option of restoring them, was less valid. That's what I am saying.

Don't understand why you said that, but yeah, we can learn from the past.

I was replying to the implication that because the creation of Tuvix "killed" Neelix and Tuvok, their rights as individuals automatically went out the window and could never be relevant again. They became relevant when the option to restore them came around.

I never said that. I worded it as "a right to life". Just as you have aright to vote, and a right to refuse medical treatment. Right doesn't mean "no choice" it means "you have sole choice". If Tuvix chooses life, then he has that right. The ethical action of others is to respect that. It doesn't rule out suicide. Was that not obvious?

Whether or not others are ethically motivated to respect your rights depends on how you use them. The only person who could have actually spoken for Neelix or Tuvok in any capacity was Tuvix, and he made it clear that their lives as individuals were less important to him than his own existence. That those lives mattered to the rest of the crew was ultimately irrelevant, because Tuvix's own survival at their expense was worth more to him.

To be unethical it requires intent, either directly (malice) or indirectly (a deliberate neglect). It was accidental. Ethics has nothing to say about Tuvix's creation.

One could argue the same about killing him, because you're not necessarily doing that. You're undoing the original accident. Just like nobody "killed" Locutus in restoring Picard from what the Borg did to him. Locutus was clearly a sentient entity, but that doesn't make his existence more preferable.

That ain't logic. Nor is it true.

Why not? Tuvix only existed because a transported accident merged his "parents" into a single being and effectively killed them as separate individuals. As such, Tuvix could not have lived any other way. The possibility of undoing this process and restoring those individuals means their rights have to be considered; it does not mean automatically that Tuvix's rights cease to matter. But it would be unethical to not consider whether Tuvok and Neelix had the right to resume their separate lives if given the option.

Janeway's action is debateable, because it's a hard choice. But since she felt she was acting to preserve two lives at the expense of one, an expense which couldn't be avoided, that is not malice.

 

[kimc]

The two others are already dead.

I realize this is a science fiction show but there is NO way they could have ever gotten Tuvok and Neelix back alive if they were dead. (Remember, this is before Seven and her magical nanoprobes).

They were still alive - just trapped within Tuvix. Unfortunately, in order to free them from Tuvix he had to die.

 

[kimc]

Two crew members, Tuvok and Neelix, receive a huge energy shock which damges theim so much and can only be reversed if they receive part the lifeforce of another human being (say Voyager has a similar machine to the one Marcus used to save Susan on Babylon 5). Would Janeway be morally right to insist that some other being be forced to donated their entire lifeforce to save Tuvok and Neelix.

Which person would it be OK to give up their lives against their will

I don't think this is an equitable scenario. To make it similar - say another being took the life force belonging to Tuvok and Neelix. Would they be obligated to give it back even though it's the only thing keeping him alive?

In your scenario I believe Janeway would not require another person to donate their life force. However, that scenario is not what the episode was about.

 

[Mach5]

Tuvix was annoying, and that episode was awful. Janeway did the right thing.

 

[Jadzia]

say another being took the life force belonging to Tuvok and Neelix. Would they be obligated to give it back even though it's the only thing keeping him alive?

This is an interesting inbetween. Well done for thinking it up kim

It's said that in any ethical rulebook, there are always holes. I think this is one of them in my book. If an entity stole life, and needed that to sustain itself, it has committed an unethical act.

I would say here that this ethical blemish grants permission to restore the original life at the expense of the entity's life.

I think ethics needs that elasticity to reverse unethical acts.

But even with this modification, I still could not allow Tuvix's separation. He was an innocent. He hadn't committed any unethical acts. I'd have to respect his wishes to live.


As far as comparison with Locutus <-> Picard, or whether Tuvok and Neelix somehow "lived on" in the interim, well this does introduce the possibility of some leeway in what actions are ethical.

Ultimately, it comes back to the issue of what is the fundamental nature of the mind. If Tuvok's and Neelix's minds existed in some form or another, that would hold some merit.

Another part of this issue is the concept of individuality. We know from psychiatry that personalities can split (or so we're told); that one mind can cleave into two or more parts.

So with that thought, are minds really distinct entities, should we treat them as indivisible entities (atoms), or are they fluidic and malleable; ie, able to be added to, blended, broken up without limit?

Until we understand the nature of mind, we can't say with certainty what willful acts are or are not ethical.

If minds are indiscrete forms, then what does that mean for individuality? for individual will? for rights? This is something we should try and answer.

Until I have a better ethical model, I'll go with what my intuition and empathy and rationality is telling me. I may be wrong, but I only have good intentions at heart. If the future is to judge me as being in error, then I'd hope they'd also recognize that I do try hard to discover what is true and ethical. I'm open to any possibility, and I try not to be blinded by prejudices. I do the best I can.

 

[kimc]

But even with this modification, I still could not allow Tuvix's separation. He was an innocent. He hadn't committed any unethical acts. I'd have to respect his wishes to live.

While I can respect that I also have to point out that in this situation Tuvok and Neelix were also innocents. They didn't commit any unethical acts and you have to respect their wish to live. Tuvix himself said that he had the suvival instinct of TWO people which to me implies he was expressing the desires of the two people trapped within him.

 

[AuntKate]

You know, as I was reading through this discussion, I was reminded of a TOS episode called "The Enemy Within." In a transporter accident, Kirk is split in half, becoming a good/weak Kirk and an evil/strong Kirk. There is no moral question about killing those two people to create the original Captain Kirk, but two people die to do it.

In another VOY episode called "Faces," B'Elanna is split in two by the Vidiians, becoming two people, a full-blooded Klingon and a full-blooded Human. In the end, there is no question of allowing the Human to continue to live (after the Klingon dies); she is "killed" when the two halves are reintegrated.

I think it's great that the writers came up with a true paradox here and didn't give Janeway an easy out. By taking action, she erases the tranporter accident named Tuvix and restores the two individuals who were inadvertently lost in the process. By not taking action, she validates the accident and erases two individuals' lives (one of whom has been around for a century or better). There is no right action. She must do what she feels is right, and there are those who will agree with her and others who will disagree. That's the nature of a true paradox.

As someone said, Janeway had to have brass ones to make this decision. I imagine that she will always remember Tuvix, however, and grieve having to sacrifice him. That's the way she is--and frankly, I admire her for it.

 

[kimc]

You know, as I was reading through this discussion, I was reminded of a TOS episode called "The Enemy Within." In a transporter accident, Kirk is split in half, becoming a good/weak Kirk and an evil/strong Kirk. There is no moral question about killing those two people to create the original Captain Kirk, but two people die to do it.

That's a good comparison - after all the "evil Kirk" wanted to live just as much as Tuvix did.

 

[Unicron]

While I can respect that I also have to point out that in this situation Tuvok and Neelix were also innocents. They didn't commit any unethical acts and you have to respect their wish to live. Tuvix himself said that he had the suvival instinct of TWO people which to me implies he was expressing the desires of the two people trapped within him.

That's pretty how much I see it. I do apologize if any of my comments have seemed unclear, cause I know my brain works less when I post late at night. I actually think Tuvix was an interesting character, and I can certainly sympathize with him to a point. But I'm also willing to support Janeway's choice, which she had to live with, because she felt she was acting to restore two individuals and their relationship with the crew. Tuvix, even if he'd lived, could not have filled the roles of either of his "parents" and probably wouldn't have wanted to, naturally.

 

[Lucy of Nine]

I just watched Tuvix last night, and whilst its a tough situation, I think Janeway made the right choice. He was a result of a transporter accident. To say she executed him, means on the other hand if she hadn't, she would have been executing Neelix and Tuvok too, since she had the power to bring them back. Tuvix was a transporter accident to me.

Was I the only one wishing he'd had a flower sprouting from his head, since he was part flower too? :P

 

[Jadzia]

I was thinking about this last night, trying to see this from your perspectives, but I still felt that my opinion was/is the right one.

This will be my last post here, because I can't explain my feelings on this any better than I am.

Restoring a status quo will casually seem seem like a good idea, in most scenarios, simply because of our own sense of familiarity and desire for continuity. We shouldn't confuse that comforting feeling with the feeling of it being ethical.

The situations of B'Elanna's or Kirk's personality separation is also worth reassessment. I'm not convinced the actions of restoring a status quo with them were ethical actions.

So what is the ethics here? What are we debating at the heart of this conundrum? We can even ask, what is ethics?

To me, ethics isn't a black box which looks at the final outcome. It is more about the methods by which we create that outcome.

If two outcomes are:
(i) end world poverty, but it means killing one innocent person;
(ii) everybody will suffer.

Then I would choose (ii), even if that poverty might kill thousands more people in the long term. The right of life of that one innocent takes precedence over the misfortunes of others. I wouldn't sacrifice one's life to the benefit however many others. If that one person chooses self-sacrifice then she is quite entitled to that, but wouldn't be pressured into it by me at all. I wouldn't consider her wrong for choosing life. She may be causally responsible for the outcome, but she isn't morally responsible, because she has a right to life.


On the televison, these are the facts:

1. Tuvok and Neelix require saving.
2. Tuvix has what they need to be saved.
3. Saving Tuvok and Neelix will kill Tuvix

This isn't a symmetric decision of saving one life or two others. The fact that Tuvok and neelix require saving, indicates their state of misfortune. While Tuvix doesn't need saving.

Tuvix is only circumstantially implicated in that misfortune.

Like I said, ethics isn't a black box: action it's weighed against inaction. Inaction is the centre of the moral compass. Inaction is morally neutral. Inaction, as a choice, is ethical.

Now In my earlier post when I said "willful inaction". I didn't make it clear what I meant there. I should have. This isn't equated with general inaction describe in the above paragraph. Consider the following: Suppose a wheelchair bound person is sat at a busy roadside wanting to cross, but isn't fast enough with the chair to confidently cross. So you arrive, and chat, and by mutual agreement, will push the person across the road. Willful inaction is what you are doing if you stop half way and leave her in the middle of the road, possibly leading to a fatal collision. It is neglecting a responsibility in such a way that it may lead to an outcome, that would otherwise be considered unethical if it had been a planned outcome. Such as deliberate deception leading to a death. Furthermore, moral responsibility isn't assumed upon a person. It only occurs through personal acceptance of it.


So, restating: The fact that Tuvok and neelix require saving, indicates their state of misfortune. While Tuvix doesn't need saving.

To me there isn't any ethical dilemma there. Tuvix shouldn't be killed to save the lives of others.

It's not really any different to, say if my two sisters needed organ transplants in order to survive, and I was the only suitable donor candidate. Should my life be destroyed to save two others? No, it wouldn't be ethical for anybody to make that decision besides me. It isn't my moral obligation to remedy the misfortunes of others.

And that's how this is: Tuvok and Neelix were struck with misfortune. Tuvix isn't obligated to remedy that.

Although he is a valid donor candidate for saving the others, his innocence shields him from any moral imperative.


I think I'll leave it there.

 

[kimc]

It's not really any different to, say if my two sisters needed organ transplants in order to survive, and I was the only suitable donor candidate. Should my life be destroyed to save two others? No, it wouldn't be ethical for anybody to make that decision besides me. It isn't my moral obligation to remedy the misfortunes of others.

And that's how this is: Tuvok and Neelix were struck with misfortune. Tuvix isn't obligated to remedy that.

Although he is a valid donor candidate for saving the others, his innocence shields him from any moral imperative.

Actually there is a difference. You would be an individual in your own right - not a combination of your two sisters. You may or may not decide to make the donation depending on a variety of factors such as your love for your sisters, your will to live your own life, etc. but whatever you decide your sisters would not be trapped within you. If you decide against the donation they would be free to look into other options.

That freedom was denied Tuvok and Neelix because they were trapped within Tuvix. Yes, Tuvix was developing a personality that blended the personalities of Tuvok and Neelix he still remained Tuvok and Neelix.

 

[exodus]

I see nobody has answered the question: if either Tuvok or Neelix were your best friend, would you still allow them too die so that a being like Tuvix can live?

Because that's the question being asked here: could Janeway allow her great friend Tuvok(who wasn't ill or in the line of combat duty) die for the sake of another?

Would anyone here allow a loved one to die for the sake of a stranger?
That's the real choice Janeway had to make.