Tuvix

[pimp]

Thanks for everyone's replies it's been really interesting reading some your opinions, and I have come to the conclusion that No one has the right to choose who lives and who dies NO ONE DOES, but if I was in the same shoes as Janeway, well I would probably come to the same conclusion as she did but I will have to acknowledge that I will be committing murder and live with it, becuase i will be killing a person to get back my friends.

 

[kimc]

Thanks for everyone's replies it's been really interesting reading some your opinions, and I have come to the conclusion that No one has the right to choose who lives and who dies NO ONE DOES, but if I was in the same shoes as Janeway, well I would probably come to the same conclusion as she did but I will have to acknowledge that I will be committing murder and live with it, becuase i will be killing a person to get back my friends.

Unfortunately choosing who lives and who dies is a part of every captain's job. Every time you send someone on an away mission you are potentially sending them to thier death.

This topic is covered somewhat in a TNG episode the name of which escapes me. Troi undergoes officer training and during a holodeck simulation has to order LaForge to make repairs she knows he will likely die while making.

 

[pimp]

Thanks for everyone's replies it's been really interesting reading some your opinions, and I have come to the conclusion that No one has the right to choose who lives and who dies NO ONE DOES, but if I was in the same shoes as Janeway, well I would probably come to the same conclusion as she did but I will have to acknowledge that I will be committing murder and live with it, becuase i will be killing a person to get back my friends.

Unfortunately choosing who lives and who dies is a part of every captain's job. Every time you send someone on an away mission you are potentially sending them to thier death.

That does not fit in with what i was trying to say because that situation that you have described is different. If a Cpt had to pick a team and send them to a mission that MAY result in their death is another matter( even if it's 99.99% certainty of death, is not the same.

 

[kimc]

Thanks for everyone's replies it's been really interesting reading some your opinions, and I have come to the conclusion that No one has the right to choose who lives and who dies NO ONE DOES, but if I was in the same shoes as Janeway, well I would probably come to the same conclusion as she did but I will have to acknowledge that I will be committing murder and live with it, becuase i will be killing a person to get back my friends.

Unfortunately choosing who lives and who dies is a part of every captain's job. Every time you send someone on an away mission you are potentially sending them to thier death.

That does not fit in with what i was trying to say because that situation that you have described is different. If a Cpt had to pick a team and send them to a mission that MAY result in their death is another matter( even if it's 99.99% certainty of death, is not the same.

I was responding to what I perceived to be a blanket statement. The fact is that as captain the decision on what to do about Tuvix was Janeway's. No matter which way she went someone would be lost.

 

[exodus]

Unfortunately choosing who lives and who dies is a part of every captain's job. Every time you send someone on an away mission you are potentially sending them to thier death.

That does not fit in with what i was trying to say because that situation that you have described is different. If a Cpt had to pick a team and send them to a mission that MAY result in their death is another matter( even if it's 99.99% certainty of death, is not the same.

I was responding to what I perceived to be a blanket statement. The fact is that as captain the decision on what to do about Tuvix was Janeway's. No matter which way she went someone would be lost.

Exactly.

The entire scenerio was a catch 22. As I said before, no matter what she chose to do, someone was going to loose.

However, outside the actual ep. itself, we all knew Tim Russ or Ethan Philips weren't leaving the show, so there was no way even from the start of the ep. that Tuvix was going to stay.

 

[Boy Wonder]

Hello

Today i was watching the episode Tuvix and i was left trying to figure out if Captain Janeway made the right decision to forcibly take Tuvix down to the medic lab to have him separated to get back Tuvok and Neelix, did she have the right to make that decision??? did she effectively sentence Tuvix to death????

At the end i felt that it was a right but also at the same time the wrong decision it depends on how you look at it, Very tough to call.

But what do you people think?????

I hated Tuvix, ugly cretin portrayed by a woeful actor.

Tuvix had to experience life at the expense of two others. By him living it was killing two other individuals. No contest.

Janeway should have whacked the gobby creep for thinking he had a right to live.

 

[pimp]

Hello

Today i was watching the episode Tuvix and i was left trying to figure out if Captain Janeway made the right decision to forcibly take Tuvix down to the medic lab to have him separated to get back Tuvok and Neelix, did she have the right to make that decision??? did she effectively sentence Tuvix to death????

At the end i felt that it was a right but also at the same time the wrong decision it depends on how you look at it, Very tough to call.

But what do you people think?????

I hated Tuvix, ugly cretin portrayed by a woeful actor.

Tuvix had to experience life at the expense of two others. By him living it was killing two other individuals. No contest.

Janeway should have whacked the gobby creep for thinking he had a right to live.

Basically you have come to that decision because hes ugly

 

[exodus]

^Plus, I'm not sure what the actor has to do with this debate involving the fate of the character.

 

[Lynx]

It was a tough decision for Janeway but I think she made the right one, restoring Tuvok and Neelix to normal.

 

[B_L_T]

One way Janeway makes wrong decision to kill Tuvix. Other way Janeway makes wrong decision to let Tuvok and Neelix die. What she to do? Both ways it's wrong decision so she make decision that affect less people. One person or two people. Better to sacrifice one person to save two than to sacrifice two people to save one

 

[Jadzia]

My view is as follows:

Janeway was unethical in her decision. The awkward social dynamics and personal relationships are irrelevant to the decision, which is a simple ethical one. It has nothing to do with the functional value of crew members either.

It isn't a matter of weighing one life against two others. The two others are already dead. Ethics doesn't work with time reversal. Part of the right to life is because that life already exists, as opposed to will exist, or has existed. It's a decision very much in the present. Creating lives and destroying lives are not ethically balanced opposites.

In this situation, unethical actions bring death. Ethics doesn't obligate action. Inaction (leaving things as they are) is generally ethical. Leaving Tuvok and Neelix dead and Tuvix alive is ethical.

Forcefully turning back the clock to how things were before ignores the fact that it brings death, which is unethical. Leaving Tuvok and Neelix dead, and Tuvix alive doesn't bring death.

- The accident killed Tuvok and Neelix. Their lives are written off as misfortune.
- Tuvix was created. Tuvix had a right to life. He wasn't responsible for the death of Tuvok and Neelix and had no ethical obligation to them, or anybody else.

This one decision is part of the reason why I dislike Voyager. Everytime I see Janeway I think "Tuvix killer"

 

[Rabittooth]

Personally I'm glad Janeway made this decision. I always liked it. One major example of her showing outright that she's got a pair.
And they're made of brass.
I think we needed to be reminded of that in a clear way once in a while especially with her.

-Rabittooth

 

[Miss Chicken]

I think Janeway was very wrong.

Lets change the scenario a little.

Two crew members, Tuvok and Neelix, receive a huge energy shock which damges theim so much and can only be reversed if they receive part the lifeforce of another human being (say Voyager has a similar machine to the one Marcus used to save Susan on Babylon 5). Would Janeway be morally right to insist that some other being be forced to donated their entire lifeforce to save Tuvok and Neelix.

Which person would it be OK to give up their lives against their will

1) Harry Kim (pretty much an useless member of the crew)
2) Lon Suder (he is a murderer)
3) The Borg baby
4) A stranger who had only recently joined the ship
5) One (who was created accidently)
6) An Equinox crew member

none, some or all of these?

 

[Jadzia]

I think Janeway was very wrong.

I'm glad we agree Ms C.

 

[Therin of Andor]

If Tuvix had volunteered that would be a different story, but he was murdered in cold blood. I always thought it would have been interesting for the writers to show what Neelix and Tuvok thought about the decision, epsecially if Neelix had thought of it as a murder.

Janeway faced a no-win scenario, but had she let Tuvix live, at least Neelix had no relatives, and Tuvok's family would take the news logically once Tuvix turned up in the Alpha Quadrant.

Imagine if the blended being had been Samantha Wildman and B'Elanna Torres, with Janeway having to remain in constant contact with Naomi Wildman and Tom Paris?

 

[Claudia]

If Tuvix had volunteered that would be a different story, but he was murdered in cold blood. I always thought it would have been interesting for the writers to show what Neelix and Tuvok thought about the decision, epsecially if Neelix had thought of it as a murder.

Janeway faced a no-win scenario, but had she let Tuvix live, at least Neelix had no relatives, and Tuvok's family would take the news logically once Tuvix turned up in the Alpha Quadrant.

Imagine if the blended being had been Samantha Wildman and B'Elanna Torres, with Janeway having to remain in constant contact with Naomi Wildman and Tom Paris?

But should that really make a difference? Either her decision is right or not - whether there are relatives around is really not important. I guess you don't mean it that way (I sure hope so at least), but one could read into your statement that someone who doesn't have friends/loved ones can be sacrificed with less remorse or so...

 

[Unicron]

It isn't a matter of weighing one life against two others. The two others are already dead. Ethics doesn't work with time reversal. Part of the right to life is because that life already exists, as opposed to will exist, or has existed. It's a decision very much in the present. Creating lives and destroying lives are not ethically balanced opposites.

Well, ethics can certainly be applied to history, and the lessons that people like Janeway draw from it, both their personal history and their larger history (i.e. that of Earth, of the Federation, and so forth). That humans on Earth at one point waged wars of conquest and hatred would seem just as ethically wrong to Janeway as it does to us in the real world.

That life exists shouldn't be the sole criteria for determining whether it's worth saving or not. If it were, then nobody who was suffering in horrible pain would have the right to ask for death. Quinn would have had no right to request that his immortality come to an end, even though it had become nothing but a burden to him.

In this situation, unethical actions bring death. Ethics doesn't obligate action. Inaction (leaving things as they are) is generally ethical. Leaving Tuvok and Neelix dead and Tuvix alive is ethical.

Forcefully turning back the clock to how things were before ignores the fact that it brings death, which is unethical. Leaving Tuvok and Neelix dead, and Tuvix alive doesn't bring death.

- The accident killed Tuvok and Neelix. Their lives are written off as misfortune.
- Tuvix was created. Tuvix had a right to life. He wasn't responsible for the death of Tuvok and Neelix and had no ethical obligation to them, or anybody else.

On the contrary, the fact that Tuvix's "birth" was accidental does not make it ethical, since it required Tuvok and Neelix to be "killed." That Tuvix was a unique entity is not in question, but as a combination of those two individuals, I very much dispute the claim that he had no ethical obligation to them or to their relationships with the rest of the crew.

If we're to accept the logic that killing Tuvix is unethical to revive two "dead" crewmembers, then logically his birth must be just as unethical since it couldn't have happened without those deaths. It assumes Tuvok and Neelix had no right to life. I think Tuvix's desire to survive was partly motivated out of fear, because he didn't want to die. And he may not have been willing to accept the consequences that his existence was having on Kes, Janeway and others. It's an understandable reaction, but it's also a selfish one.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Of course Tuvix's desire for life was a selfish reaction but it was also the one that the majority of us would probably make in his place. If we weren't selfish we would voluntarily give up all our organs to save 5 or 6 lives. If you and I aren't expected to give up our heart, lungs, both kidneys and liver etc to save several other people why should Tuvix be expected to give up his life to save only two lives.

Not only are we not expected to give up lives to save other, we aren't even pressured at all to give up one kidney to save another life even though giving up a single kidney won't kill us.

Tuvix 'birth' wasn't deliberately caused and therefore there was no malice in his creation and therefore wasn't unethical even if it caused two deaths - it was morally neutral in my opinion - , however he was put to death deliberately against his will and that is murder. He was a sentient being with the same rights as other sentient being and, at the point when Tuvix existed, Tuvok and Neelix weren't sentient beings and therefore their right to life was no where near as strong as Tuvix's right to life.

 

[Unicron]

But he made it clear that, given a choice, and given that Kes wanted Neelix back and not Tuvix, he would have readily denied her that in favor of his own survival. Neither Tuvok or Neelix would have been unwilling to make themselves a sacrifice if they thought it was warranted, whereas Tuvix gave me the impression that he would have tried to preserve his existence to the utmost, regardless of what anyone else wanted. That's the thing that ultimately makes his argument lose points with me. Once the option of restoring them was brought around, Tuvix became afraid. And I think he ultimately let that fear rule him more than any other quality he possessed.

Kes wanted Neelix back, and to ignore that would have violated her rights IMO. As it would also have ignored Neelix's right to live, given the chance to let him live normally again. Janeway was not just protecting the rights of Tuvok and Neelix, but of the rest of the crew who wanted those crewmembers returned. Who respected Tuvix, but realized that he was not their preference. I see it as a good of the many scenario more than anything else.

 

[Miss Chicken]

This is the same Kes who dumped Neelix a few epsiodes later?

No-one right to life is based on how popular they are.

In the here and now should a unpopular Star Trek nerd be forced to give his heart up for a much loved married man with kids? Or two married men whose wives want them to live? Would those right to have their husbands live be greater than the nerds right to life?

Would you personally give up your life to save the life of someone who was more popular than you?