Too Many Commanders?

[GhostLoveScore]

Perhaps, but that still is pretty top heavy. 2 commanders on a ship with under 150 crew?

The Enterprise-D had 1,000 with 2 commanders. Still a big gap.

I've come to expect Discovery writers don't pay that much attention. They are hell bent to change everything about star trek.
And what the hell are Burnham and Saru now? Are they both first officers? Are they observers? Are they Disneyland gate keepers? Previous Trek shows explained everything, Discovery is just flying through everything only to serve the underlying grand arc that so far is not at all good.
Discovery had a few really good episodes, but they still have to change more in order to catch up to other Trek shows.

 

[thribs]

Well they're one less now.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I've come to expect Discovery writers don't pay that much attention. They are hell bent to change everything about star trek.
And what the hell are Burnham and Saru now? Are they both first officers? Are they observers? Are they Disneyland gate keepers? Previous Trek shows explained everything, Discovery is just flying through everything only to serve the underlying grand arc that so far is not at all good.
Discovery had a few really good episodes, but they still have to change more in order to catch up to other Trek shows.

Saru is the XO and Burnham is a science officer. I think the show makes that pretty obvious.

 

[Timo]

Well, most of the previous Trek shows never clarified who was the second officer, let alone what the brightly colored assorted extras (or, for the first season of TNG, the brightly colored main cast!) did for a living... DSC is clearly an improvement on that, even if its scheme for bridge officers is as convoluted as in any of the other spinoffs.

The business with Saru remains a bit unclear. Pike has twice chosen to treat Saru as the Acting Captain, despite assuming command under that emergency regulation and then staying put, supposedly still under that regulation. With Saru's newfound ability and urge to put words edgewise, will this backfire? "With respect, Sir, this situation is not covered by your emergency authority at all. Please move aside or I will have Security vacate my chair for me."

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

most of the previous Trek shows never clarified who was the second officer,

TOS: Scotty
TNG: Data
DS9: Dax for seasons1-3, Worf for seasons 4-7
Voyager: Tuvok
Enterprise: Trip

Pike has twice chosen to treat Saru as the Acting Captain, despite assuming command under that emergency regulation and then staying put, supposedly still under that regulation.

Pike only took command due to emergency circumstances in the premiere. At the end of the episode Starfleet made him the official Captain of the ship due to a combination of the Red Angel investigation and the Enterprise needing to go in for repairs. That's the whole reason why Pike where's his gold Enterprise uniform for most of the episode and switches to the blue Disco outfit in the final scene.

 

[Timo]

TOS: Scotty
TNG: Data
DS9: Dax for seasons1-3, Worf for seasons 4-7
Voyager: Tuvok
Enterprise: Trip

Bullshit, tho.

TOS never made any specific mention of who the 2nd Officer would be - all we have is conjecture.
DS9 never made any specific mention of who the 2nd Officer would be - all we have is conjecture.
VOY never made any specific mention of who the 2nd Officer would be - all we have is conjecture.
ENT never made any specific mention of who the 2nd Officer would be - Trip apparently was supposed to be Archer's second-in-command, that is, 1st Officer, until T'Pol rewrote the rules.

In every show, there were exceptions that never were clarified, casting doubt on the whole 2nd Officer deal.

DSC isn't doing any worse than these shows so far. Nor any better.

(TNG is the one that differs from all the rest, in making multiple explicit reference to Data being either "third-in-command" or "Second Officer".)

Pike only took command due to emergency circumstances in the premiere. At the end of the episode Starfleet made him the official Captain of the ship due to a combination of the Red Angel investigation and the Enterprise needing to go in for repairs. That's the whole reason why Pike where's his gold Enterprise uniform for most of the episode and switches to the blue Disco outfit in the final scene.

Good conjecture - but Pike's status changing is not spelled out. Instead, his treating the command as "joint custody" is the bit made explicit in dialogue at the end of the episode.

Then again, in "The Sounds of Thunder" Pike specifically addresses Saru as his "First Officer", making that bit finally clear. Similar dialogue on Burnham's current status is still missing.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

TOS never made any specific mention of who the 2nd Officer would be - all we have is conjecture.

Scotty always took command when Kirk and Spock weren't available. What does that make him if not second officer?

DS9 never made any specific mention of who the 2nd Officer would be - all we have is conjecture.

Dax was the next ranking officer after Kira in the first three seasons, and Worf for the rest of the series. That's pretty solid conjecture.

VOY never made any specific mention of who the 2nd Officer would be - all we have is conjecture.

Actually, Tuvok is stated to be second officer on many occasions.

ENT never made any specific mention of who the 2nd Officer would be - Trip apparently was supposed to be Archer's second-in-command, that is, 1st Officer, until T'Pol rewrote the rules.

Again, Trip is the next ranking officer after T'Pol, and he took command in Archer and T'Pol's absence. Occam's Razor makes him the second officer.

Good conjecture - but Pike's status changing is not spelled out.

It is spelled out in the scene near the end of the episode where he and Michael talk in the ready room with him complaining about Lorca's dislike of chairs.

 

[DEWLine]

I liked that "joint custody" metaphor.

 

[Tim Thomason]

I'm of the strong opinion that Burnham isn't Second Officer, and is probably explicitly out of the chain of command, despite her high rank and former XO position. We haven't seen anyone take over for Saru in Season 2. If the unseen Chief Engineer, the unseen Commanders, and the once-seen medical commander are all division chiefs out of the command chain, then the next officer up might be Lieutenant Detmer. She's the highest-ranking Bridge officer, outside of Saru and Burnham. And as a helm officer, is probably trained to take the center chair, at least in emergency or relief situations. She's only been a full Lt. less than two years, but everyone else there seems to be Lieutenants junior grade ("Too Many Lieutenants junior grade?")

The show is very lax in Lieutenant Commanders, though. With only two known: the former pair of Stamets and Culber. Culber is explicitly not reinstated (and probably out due to his medical background), and Stamets is a mycological engineer with probably zero command training. His promotion seems to have been an award tacked on at the end of last season.

...Oh, wait. Commander Nhan. I forgot about her. She's probably a good bet for Second Officer. That's probably why Pike brought her over again.

 

[XCV330]

...Oh, wait. Commander Nhan. I forgot about her. She's probably a good bet for Second Officer. That's probably why Pike brought her over again.

Nhan makes the most sense. Going in there Pike had whatever second-hand information Spock chose to share about her (that she was smart), but primarily what he would have known was the same thing everyone in the UFP knew, that she was the famous mutineer. I'd go in there with a bodyguard too

 

[The Wormhole]

I liked that "joint custody" metaphor.

Eh, I found it kind of redundant since "joint custody" basically summarizes the relationship between a Captain and XO anyway.

We haven't seen anyone take over for Saru in Season 2.

Airiam was frequently seen in the command chair, and indeed I had assumed her to be the second officer during the first season. No clue who that would be now. I guess it could be Naan like you say, though she's presumably going back to the Enterprise with Pike at the end of the season. I guess it's possible at the end of the season Detmer or Owo could get promoted and become the new second officer.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think it's reasonably likely that Airiam (implied to be third-in-command under Lorca) was Second Officer up until her death. I don't see any reason not to assume that Burnham (the Chief Science Officer - and two ranks higher than SCIO Spock as 3-i-C) will be appointed (de facto) Second Officer going forward, particularly as the endgame of the series is likely to be Captain Burnham.

 

[Timo]

Eh, I found it kind of redundant since "joint custody" basically summarizes the relationship between a Captain and XO anyway.

...Which should probably be taken as proof that here it means something else.

Scotty was sometimes the choice when Kirk and Spock were gone. Sometimes he wasn't, and one-braid nobodies like DeSalle were selected instead. We never learned whether Scotty would command "by default", as he was always left in command by Kirk personally, and Kirk could leave Scotty, DeSalle or his pet tribble in command if that was his mood.

Yet Kirk had Commander-braided redshirts in command of his security force on occasion, one of 'em even warranting a name. Nhan could well stand outside the chain of succession, then, just like Commander Giotto.

But it still stands that "Second Officer" as a dialogue concept doesn't exist outside TNG. For all we know, this is not mere dialogue omission, but the result of Starfleet in the 23rd century not believing in Second Officers at all.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

Which should probably be taken as proof that here it means something else.

Or it's just clunky writing. Such things do happen.

 

[Timo]

Well, it's writing, clunky or not. Pike did jump from his seat in favor of Saru, and the whole exchange at the end of "Brother" seems to exist exactly and exclusively to suggest this very issue remains unresolved.

No later episode ever returns to the issue: Pike's command status is not stated to have changed by any of the many developments (his old ship being officially declared a wreck, the Red Angel and S31 showing an interest in his new one, him becoming a fugitive, etc.). He just gets more staff in "Obol", perhaps meaning status changes for people we never see or hear of, but not for the main heroes.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jedman67]

In Ep 1, Pike officially takes command of Discovery as its captain. Saru, having never been a) granted permanent assignment to Captain, b) promotion to Captain and c) the Discovery is on its way to pick up a new CO who is not Saru; makes it clear that whatever specific directives they get from Starfleet Command, Saru is not, and will continue to not be, as long as Pike remains onboard.
From then, we apply a technique often missing from hour-long TV shows, called "logic" (ironically seen many times on TOS) to deduce that Saru as the next ranking officer after the captain is the XO. Burnham is presumably the next senior officer, informally known as the second officer, despite only being a Lt. Commander from her experience as the XO on the Shenzhou and knowledge of the ship and crew from S1 of DSC. However, due to their being a few other officers who are full commanders, and that so far the plot hasn't needed to decide who the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and hundredth ranking members of the crew are, it's subject to the viewers imagination to decide.
If they care.

 

[PiotrB]

Burnham is presumably the next senior officer, informally known as the second officer, despite only being a Lt. Commander from her experience as the XO on the Shenzhou and knowledge of the ship and crew from S1 of DSC.

Burnham's rank is Commander.

 

[Lord Garth]

Airiam was frequently seen in the command chair, and indeed I had assumed her to be the second officer during the first season. No clue who that would be now. I guess it could be Naan like you say, though she's presumably going back to the Enterprise with Pike at the end of the season. I guess it's possible at the end of the season Detmer or Owo could get promoted and become the new second officer.

Unless there's a Pike Series secretly in the development (which might be), I think Naan will stay on Discovery. As far as we know, Pike and Number One are the only ones who won't be back for the third season.

 

[drt]

Here's how it worked in Brother: Saru was the acting captain for the trip to Vulcan, Pike comes on board and temporarily assumes command to chase down the red signal as Enterprise is incapacitated, once that mission ends Pike hands the chair back to Saru to command the capture of the asteroid (and presumably to command Discovery for the resumption of the Vulcan trip), however before that can take place Starfleet determines that Enterprise needs additional work and Pike is officially made Discovery's captain.

 

[The Wormhole]

Pike did jump from his seat in favor of Saru, and the whole exchange at the end of "Brother" seems to exist exactly and exclusively to suggest this very issue remains unresolved.

Pike turned command over to Saru at the end of Brother because the mission at hand was done and Pike believed his term commanding Disco was also done. Once in contact with Starfleet, they extended his command of Disco for the foreseeable future. It was then, knowing his assignment to Disco was semi-permanent that Pike changed into a blue uniform whether than continue wearing his gold Enterprise uniform. Note Naan wore her red skirt for all of Brother and now wears a blue Disco uniform. Had Connolly survived after Brother, he'd likely have switched from Enterprise blue to Disco blue too.

Unless there's a Pike Series secretly in the development (which might be), I think Naan will stay on Discovery. As far as we know, Pike and Number One are the only ones who won't be back for the third season.

Though it should be noted the article talking about Pike and Number One leaving made no mention of Spock, though I doubt anyone's expecting him to stick around next season.