Time Lords and Gallifrey in Classic Who
- Thread starter JD
- Start date
I think Deadly Assassin and Invasion of Time have probably given use the most inside on the Timelords. The former in particular introduced the Matrix, the APC, bio-extracts, Eye of Harmony etc. Not sure if Artron energy had been introduced earlier.
Five Doctors gave us a bit more on Rassilon and introduced the forbidden zone.
Trial of a Timeload gave us
All of those plus The War Games, The Three Doctors, Arc of Infinity, Shada, and any serial that features a Time Lord outside of Gallifrey (The Armageddon Factor, The Time Meddler, Terror of the Autons, Planet of Spiders, The Twin Dilemma, etc.).
I think JD was thinking more of episodes that gave us more insights in to actual Timelord society, history etc so War Games would in there for the first actual naming of the Timelords, The Three Doctors gave use Rassilon, Omega, black holes and how they provide power for the Timelords.
Though we should also include The Time Warrior which gave us the first on screen mention "Gallifrey"
No, Rassilon wasn't created until "The Deadly Assassin." The two stories separately and contradictorily gave Omega and Rassilon credit for founding Time Lord civilization; T3D said that Omega created a supernova as a power source and was sucked into the resulting black hole, while TDA said that Rassilon harnessed an existing black hole to power time travel. Neither story mentioned anything from the other; it was up to later authors to reconcile the Omega version and the Rassilon version into a single origin story.
Sure, but seeing individuals outside of Gallifrey gives insight to that society, particularly K'anpo Rimpoche, Azrael, and Drax.
Either way, The War Games, The Three Doctors, Arc of Infinity, and Shada should all still be watched.
I'll denote the better/recommended stories with a *.
"The War Games"* is a strong outing for their first appearance, which is shockingly limited in terms of minutes on screen. But we see who and what they are and a glimpse of their power. Holds up well...
The next time they're used in any big way is "The Three Doctors", albeit as un-powerful as anything could get. But they do play a pivotal role, considering the Doctor's lore up to that point. "Omega" is introduced and is a cliche mustache-twirling baddie, complete with loud voice and of the sort that had everyone under the age of 5 being scared enough to wet their pants. Anyone over 3, not so much...
After that, "The Deadly Assassin" features them doddering about - also just as
poorly, if not more so. And to the point some in the audience were cheering the Master on. The same story also introduces a few cringe inducing jokes and, of course, the infamous regeneration limit. This was allegedly going to be built up for the Doctor further on except Hinchcliffe left the show, so the indirect revelation was left hanging, and used by later producers like John Nathan-Turner (and Steven Moffat) to build upon. Until this story, the Doctor does say he's regenerated a "a couple times before" (which contradicts the Morbius story, which also keeps it woolly as to whether or not the Doctor had pre-Hartnell incarnations or if it was a mind game as both Morbius and the Doctor were still mentally strong enough to fight) but I'll get back to that in a moment...)
"The Invasion of Time" is the next time we see them in any capacity, and it's set on their planet again. Except this time it doesn't matter how many companions the Doctor has, they're all allowed to trundle on in and party with him. And that's the one aspect of the story that was given any attention to detail.
Up next is "Arc of Infinity" from 1982 - again, set on their home planet and are used in any actual capacity. Unfortunately, we get the cliche 'one amongst us is a villain, moohahaha" trope and after a while it's not hard to guess. But it's got a bit of action and intrigue, and Maxil constantly steals the show. Definitely an improvement from anything made in the 1970s... Omega makes a return. There is zero continuity between this and T3D above, which feels just wrong. That aside, Omega is treated like a proper character. Add in 1982 new wave hairdos with bright yellow socks and I honestly wouldn't skip on this despite its foibles.
Next up is "The Five Doctors"*. Yep, they're back on Gallifrey and "Rassilon" is introduced. As with "The War Games", the same author penned this one and the depth and quality of his use of his creation shows. He would say decades later he disliked how he wrote them in Classic Who, which is strange as they're so much better handled by him than most other writers using them. This story single-handedly elevates the Time Lords back to "proper mystery" status.
"The Trial of a Time Lord" is their final use on the show. Pretty much as boring as you'd expect, at least the Valeyard is an interesting creation that's also extremely well-acted. Robert Holmes had the majority of their inclusion and the results are largely good, though his first four episodes feel more derivative than they should.
And now, the tangential stories where they're mentioned or hinted at.
"Terror of the Autons"* sees a Time Lord coming to visit the Doctor in exile. He's played up a bit camp with the lame joke about his coordinates being off, but ignoring that introduction he's used to decent if not limited effect. He works well off of Pertwee. The same story introduces the Master, whose portrayal by Roger Delgado would ensure more than success from the get-go. Robert Holmes' penchant for sharp character dialogue is just as strong... What's funny is, Holmes pretty much took his previous year's "Spearhead from Space" and retooled it for the sake of the Master. Without the Master, this story is a total flop. Note how I gave it the "recommended" status, that's how great the Master is.
"The Claws of Axos" hints that the Time Lords allowed his TARDIS to operate (remote control) so he could trap the Axons, but that's about it. It's still a great story, but a one-off sentence at the end explaining their use isn't enough in terms of being a Time Lord-centric story.
"Colony in Space" has the Time Lords actively manipulating the Doctor but they're used solely as plot narrative bookends. The Master too sets up a big caper, hence the need to get the Doctor involved.
"Planet of the Spiders" introduces Cho-Je, a Time Lord who's also incognito on Earth and helps the Doctor regenerate. He was once an associate of the Doctor's.
"The Brain of Morbius" is all about Gallifreyans and alliances, and an enemy, but is remarkably tangential. (Oh, I'm sorry for that overly long moment, I myself went through two bathroom breaks and a double cheeseburger with a redbull big gulp in between.) Terrance Dicks called it bland, hence using a pseudonym. It's heavily inspired by "Frankenstein" but adds so much more into the lore as well as altered premises that anyone unaware would not think much about it. It's a rather clever setup.
"State of Decay"* involves a long-past war with "The Great One" - a particularly nasty vampire, and one that almost took over the entire galaxy. Terrance Dicks wrote it three years earlier but the BBC ordered it put aside because they didn't want it to air around the time their non-scifi adaptation of "Dracula" was being made. I loved this one as a kid and a lot of it holds up.
"Resurrection of the Daleks" has the Daleks scheming to do about eight million things for flimsy reasons, but dang if it's not action-packed... But one of those eight million things is to invade Gallifrey to assassinate the High Council, using the Doctor to set the stage as he accepted the Lord President position on Gallifrey after "The Five Doctors", though there's no direct or indirect confirmation of that piece of continuity. (Fans who sat through Davison's era probably will connect the dots, but not necessarily, and it's not a necessity that picking up on that plot detail was intended - or even needed.) It does elevate the Daleks a little in terms of being an actual foe, and not as wind-up tin robots, since their previous outing used them as a joke...
"The Twin Dilemma" sees another former associate and friend, Azmael returning. Some say he was to be Cho-Je, but the regeneration count stated on screen is technically off by 1. Maurice Denham really puts in a robust and believable performance for the plight of Jaconda and himself. The story was written by an accomplished writer, Anthony Steven, who had little sci-fi background so Eric Saward had to take over - and his two episodes fare so much better considering the problems the story had (and the fact there was no time to start over). The story is such a garbled mess, but has some interesting sci-fi ideas at work and Azmael's plight is worthy enough to keep watching. That, and Colin Baker works overtime to make some stinky dialogue (and direct continuity from the previous story) work.
"Attack of the Cybermen" hints at the Time Lords maneuvering the TARDIS to get the Doctor to meddle with the Cyber scheme to change history. Part 2 has its moments, but part 1 is a lot more solid. The Doctor throws a fit when realizing he was maneuvered. Of all the incarnations, the 6th had the most interaction with the Time Lords behind the scenes and in some ways it's rather good.
"The Two Doctors" had author Robert Holmes mistaking the third as the second Doctor, which had fans creating 'Season 6B" to canonize the resultant problems after getting bored of griping of the continuity problems. Again, Time Lord interference is hinted at and this time it's about illegal time travel experiments setting the stage. Robert Holmes, who wrote this to take place in Louisiana but then had to rewrite it hastily because the US partner in financing the story pulled out and anything is up for fun speculation. That said, the end result due to the rewrite (now taking place in Seville, Spain - yum!) loses some of the original banter between the Doctor and Peri, and to be honest the Sontarans are not needed as there's enough plot for everyone else, but he also said he wanted to improve their status after "The Invasion of Time"... I like the story but most keep it in the "mediocre" range. It could have been more and I wish the original scripts were available...
The original, unmade season 23 had little in development... but its finale, "Gallifrey", would have featured the Doctor's home planet (again). Speculation suggests the planet might have been destroyed, but that's neither here nor there: Considering the 6th Doctor's era was peppered with a lot of dialogue regarding the Time Lords and their alleged involvement in events, I wish something proper had been developed before the show was put on hiatus and retooled but the fact enough information existed to say this would have been the finale only whets the appetite for fans of Colin's era (like meeeeeee!
). They clearly were working to a plan for Colin's era with all this. Okay, that's speculation but the theory fits. Or doesn't not fit.
Side note to the previous paragraph: A lot of the unmade season 23 is definitely better than the retooled and produced season from 1986 (though the new theme music has a great haunting tone, even if synth sax instruments hadn't been perfected yet - the idea behind the composition is rather great, but I digress.) And most of those were sufficiently completed to actually be released in some form. Three were novelized as little work had to be done. That said, most of the season had enough in terms of approved synopses that they were cobbled into audio releases - these were largely good but there's something about the novels that did them more justice... "Gallifrey" was not amongst these, nor was the story with the presumed/unconfirmed title of 'Yellow Fever and how to Cure it" - a story set in Singapore for some reason and (speculatively) featured the Master and Autons and possibly the Rani, who first appeared in "The Mark of the Rani" and Kate O'Mara simply stole the show as the newest rogue Time Lord, that of amoral scientist using the galaxy as a giant petri dish. Very original and memorable character, thanks in no small part to Kate. (Her second appearance in the show didn't fare as well, but that's another story...)
"Remembrance of the Daleks" has the Emperor spouting on and on about "its impotent column of Time Lords" in the most bizarre double entendre of all time, and the rest of that scene was truncated since the bit where the Doctor boasts about how he's more than just another Time Lord was deemed "too excessive and insincere" and was excised from being filmed, but it's an extra on the DVD. The same (save for no deleted bits as DVD extras) also gets to be said for...
..."Silver Nemesis", whose original intent was to reveal the Doctor as being a god - but the producer, who still allowed the story to be made, demanded this be toned down significantly because they were trying to introduce mystery, not demystify with a sappy, lame explanation. And rightly so. He let script editor Andrew Cartmel have some creative freedom but still had final say. Given that everyone felt he would curtain scenes from "The Curse of Fenric" but didn't, the fact he did curtail this attempted revelation is that much more significant as a result. The story involves another Time Lord artifact as well as a plot similar to "Remembrance of the Daleks" (not unlike how "Resurrection of the Daleks"'s plot is similar to "Earthshock"'s.) The Doctor starts spouting stuff about prototypes and namedrops Rassilon and Omega as if they were all a bunch of happy drunken barflies on a Friday night. The scene between Peinforte and Ace at the end about this faux mystery of the Doctor is nicely done, but Fiona Walker (Lady Peinforte) pretty much steals the show in her own right. The story is limited to 3 episodes when 5 were needed given everything it's juggling, but roll with its issues and it's still reasonably good.
"The War Games"* is a strong outing for their first appearance, which is shockingly limited in terms of minutes on screen. But we see who and what they are and a glimpse of their power. Holds up well...
The next time they're used in any big way is "The Three Doctors", albeit as un-powerful as anything could get. But they do play a pivotal role, considering the Doctor's lore up to that point. "Omega" is introduced and is a cliche mustache-twirling baddie, complete with loud voice and of the sort that had everyone under the age of 5 being scared enough to wet their pants. Anyone over 3, not so much...
After that, "The Deadly Assassin" features them doddering about - also just as
poorly, if not more so. And to the point some in the audience were cheering the Master on. The same story also introduces a few cringe inducing jokes and, of course, the infamous regeneration limit. This was allegedly going to be built up for the Doctor further on except Hinchcliffe left the show, so the indirect revelation was left hanging, and used by later producers like John Nathan-Turner (and Steven Moffat) to build upon. Until this story, the Doctor does say he's regenerated a "a couple times before" (which contradicts the Morbius story, which also keeps it woolly as to whether or not the Doctor had pre-Hartnell incarnations or if it was a mind game as both Morbius and the Doctor were still mentally strong enough to fight) but I'll get back to that in a moment...)
"The Invasion of Time" is the next time we see them in any capacity, and it's set on their planet again. Except this time it doesn't matter how many companions the Doctor has, they're all allowed to trundle on in and party with him. And that's the one aspect of the story that was given any attention to detail.
Up next is "Arc of Infinity" from 1982 - again, set on their home planet and are used in any actual capacity. Unfortunately, we get the cliche 'one amongst us is a villain, moohahaha" trope and after a while it's not hard to guess. But it's got a bit of action and intrigue, and Maxil constantly steals the show. Definitely an improvement from anything made in the 1970s... Omega makes a return. There is zero continuity between this and T3D above, which feels just wrong. That aside, Omega is treated like a proper character. Add in 1982 new wave hairdos with bright yellow socks and I honestly wouldn't skip on this despite its foibles.
Next up is "The Five Doctors"*. Yep, they're back on Gallifrey and "Rassilon" is introduced. As with "The War Games", the same author penned this one and the depth and quality of his use of his creation shows. He would say decades later he disliked how he wrote them in Classic Who, which is strange as they're so much better handled by him than most other writers using them. This story single-handedly elevates the Time Lords back to "proper mystery" status.
"The Trial of a Time Lord" is their final use on the show. Pretty much as boring as you'd expect, at least the Valeyard is an interesting creation that's also extremely well-acted. Robert Holmes had the majority of their inclusion and the results are largely good, though his first four episodes feel more derivative than they should.
And now, the tangential stories where they're mentioned or hinted at.
"Terror of the Autons"* sees a Time Lord coming to visit the Doctor in exile. He's played up a bit camp with the lame joke about his coordinates being off, but ignoring that introduction he's used to decent if not limited effect. He works well off of Pertwee. The same story introduces the Master, whose portrayal by Roger Delgado would ensure more than success from the get-go. Robert Holmes' penchant for sharp character dialogue is just as strong... What's funny is, Holmes pretty much took his previous year's "Spearhead from Space" and retooled it for the sake of the Master. Without the Master, this story is a total flop. Note how I gave it the "recommended" status, that's how great the Master is.
"The Claws of Axos" hints that the Time Lords allowed his TARDIS to operate (remote control) so he could trap the Axons, but that's about it. It's still a great story, but a one-off sentence at the end explaining their use isn't enough in terms of being a Time Lord-centric story.
"Colony in Space" has the Time Lords actively manipulating the Doctor but they're used solely as plot narrative bookends. The Master too sets up a big caper, hence the need to get the Doctor involved.
"Planet of the Spiders" introduces Cho-Je, a Time Lord who's also incognito on Earth and helps the Doctor regenerate. He was once an associate of the Doctor's.
"The Brain of Morbius" is all about Gallifreyans and alliances, and an enemy, but is remarkably tangential. (Oh, I'm sorry for that overly long moment, I myself went through two bathroom breaks and a double cheeseburger with a redbull big gulp in between.) Terrance Dicks called it bland, hence using a pseudonym. It's heavily inspired by "Frankenstein" but adds so much more into the lore as well as altered premises that anyone unaware would not think much about it. It's a rather clever setup.
"State of Decay"* involves a long-past war with "The Great One" - a particularly nasty vampire, and one that almost took over the entire galaxy. Terrance Dicks wrote it three years earlier but the BBC ordered it put aside because they didn't want it to air around the time their non-scifi adaptation of "Dracula" was being made. I loved this one as a kid and a lot of it holds up.
"Resurrection of the Daleks" has the Daleks scheming to do about eight million things for flimsy reasons, but dang if it's not action-packed... But one of those eight million things is to invade Gallifrey to assassinate the High Council, using the Doctor to set the stage as he accepted the Lord President position on Gallifrey after "The Five Doctors", though there's no direct or indirect confirmation of that piece of continuity. (Fans who sat through Davison's era probably will connect the dots, but not necessarily, and it's not a necessity that picking up on that plot detail was intended - or even needed.) It does elevate the Daleks a little in terms of being an actual foe, and not as wind-up tin robots, since their previous outing used them as a joke...
"The Twin Dilemma" sees another former associate and friend, Azmael returning. Some say he was to be Cho-Je, but the regeneration count stated on screen is technically off by 1. Maurice Denham really puts in a robust and believable performance for the plight of Jaconda and himself. The story was written by an accomplished writer, Anthony Steven, who had little sci-fi background so Eric Saward had to take over - and his two episodes fare so much better considering the problems the story had (and the fact there was no time to start over). The story is such a garbled mess, but has some interesting sci-fi ideas at work and Azmael's plight is worthy enough to keep watching. That, and Colin Baker works overtime to make some stinky dialogue (and direct continuity from the previous story) work.
"Attack of the Cybermen" hints at the Time Lords maneuvering the TARDIS to get the Doctor to meddle with the Cyber scheme to change history. Part 2 has its moments, but part 1 is a lot more solid. The Doctor throws a fit when realizing he was maneuvered. Of all the incarnations, the 6th had the most interaction with the Time Lords behind the scenes and in some ways it's rather good.
"The Two Doctors" had author Robert Holmes mistaking the third as the second Doctor, which had fans creating 'Season 6B" to canonize the resultant problems after getting bored of griping of the continuity problems. Again, Time Lord interference is hinted at and this time it's about illegal time travel experiments setting the stage. Robert Holmes, who wrote this to take place in Louisiana but then had to rewrite it hastily because the US partner in financing the story pulled out and anything is up for fun speculation. That said, the end result due to the rewrite (now taking place in Seville, Spain - yum!) loses some of the original banter between the Doctor and Peri, and to be honest the Sontarans are not needed as there's enough plot for everyone else, but he also said he wanted to improve their status after "The Invasion of Time"... I like the story but most keep it in the "mediocre" range. It could have been more and I wish the original scripts were available...
The original, unmade season 23 had little in development... but its finale, "Gallifrey", would have featured the Doctor's home planet (again). Speculation suggests the planet might have been destroyed, but that's neither here nor there: Considering the 6th Doctor's era was peppered with a lot of dialogue regarding the Time Lords and their alleged involvement in events, I wish something proper had been developed before the show was put on hiatus and retooled but the fact enough information existed to say this would have been the finale only whets the appetite for fans of Colin's era (like meeeeeee!
). They clearly were working to a plan for Colin's era with all this. Okay, that's speculation but the theory fits. Or doesn't not fit.Side note to the previous paragraph: A lot of the unmade season 23 is definitely better than the retooled and produced season from 1986 (though the new theme music has a great haunting tone, even if synth sax instruments hadn't been perfected yet - the idea behind the composition is rather great, but I digress.) And most of those were sufficiently completed to actually be released in some form. Three were novelized as little work had to be done. That said, most of the season had enough in terms of approved synopses that they were cobbled into audio releases - these were largely good but there's something about the novels that did them more justice... "Gallifrey" was not amongst these, nor was the story with the presumed/unconfirmed title of 'Yellow Fever and how to Cure it" - a story set in Singapore for some reason and (speculatively) featured the Master and Autons and possibly the Rani, who first appeared in "The Mark of the Rani" and Kate O'Mara simply stole the show as the newest rogue Time Lord, that of amoral scientist using the galaxy as a giant petri dish. Very original and memorable character, thanks in no small part to Kate. (Her second appearance in the show didn't fare as well, but that's another story...)
"Remembrance of the Daleks" has the Emperor spouting on and on about "its impotent column of Time Lords" in the most bizarre double entendre of all time, and the rest of that scene was truncated since the bit where the Doctor boasts about how he's more than just another Time Lord was deemed "too excessive and insincere" and was excised from being filmed, but it's an extra on the DVD. The same (save for no deleted bits as DVD extras) also gets to be said for...
..."Silver Nemesis", whose original intent was to reveal the Doctor as being a god - but the producer, who still allowed the story to be made, demanded this be toned down significantly because they were trying to introduce mystery, not demystify with a sappy, lame explanation. And rightly so. He let script editor Andrew Cartmel have some creative freedom but still had final say. Given that everyone felt he would curtain scenes from "The Curse of Fenric" but didn't, the fact he did curtail this attempted revelation is that much more significant as a result. The story involves another Time Lord artifact as well as a plot similar to "Remembrance of the Daleks" (not unlike how "Resurrection of the Daleks"'s plot is similar to "Earthshock"'s.) The Doctor starts spouting stuff about prototypes and namedrops Rassilon and Omega as if they were all a bunch of happy drunken barflies on a Friday night. The scene between Peinforte and Ace at the end about this faux mystery of the Doctor is nicely done, but Fiona Walker (Lady Peinforte) pretty much steals the show in her own right. The story is limited to 3 episodes when 5 were needed given everything it's juggling, but roll with its issues and it's still reasonably good.
OK, thanks for the recommendations, I'll definitely have to check out at least some of them on Britbox.
I might also check out the Rani episodes too, since I've been curious about her.
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised we haven't seen a new version of her on the current series.
I might also check out the Rani episodes too, since I've been curious about her.
I have to admit, I'm a little surprised we haven't seen a new version of her on the current series.
Maybe to avoid confusion with Rani Chandra from The Sarah Jane Adventures? Or more likely just because she was from a less popular era of the series, and only one of her two serials was any good. And now that we've had a female Master, the Rani would be a bit redundant.
Honestly, I'd rather see a new incarnation of Romana, or even Susan.
There's only a few stories that deal with Time Lord society in depth. I'd say that Deadly Assassin is the single story with the most information. You could top that off with The Three Doctors, The Invasion of Time, and The Five Doctors to get 90% of what's covered in the classic series. That's if you're focusing on Gallifrey and its society. The classic series is pretty thin on stories/information about them.
I always enjoyed stories with the Time Lords myself. I disagree with modern Who. I think the portrayal of an advance civilization that's become complacent and inactive to be relevant. I'd agree they're best in small doses. My preference would've been for them to exist but appear rarely. The Doctor doesn't want any thing to do with them and they don't want anything to do with him/her. However, events occasionally force them together.
I always enjoyed stories with the Time Lords myself. I disagree with modern Who. I think the portrayal of an advance civilization that's become complacent and inactive to be relevant. I'd agree they're best in small doses. My preference would've been for them to exist but appear rarely. The Doctor doesn't want any thing to do with them and they don't want anything to do with him/her. However, events occasionally force them together.
"Quorum", not "column". Just because YOUR mind is in the gutter.
Ever since I first saw the story, I perceived the Emperor saying "Column". "Quorum" makes rather more sense... :embarrassed:
Hope you enjoy them!
Regarding the Rani, definitely start with "The Mark of the Rani". Her other stories are either out of character or are just dumb.
No argument on "only one of her serials was any good". Her second one completely misuses her and turns her into more or less a Master clone.
"The Mark and the Rani" presents the Rani was an amoral scientist and nothing like the Master. Not many distinctive archetypes exist, but the Rani was definitely original enough when compared to the Master, Monk, War Chief, et al. But, as with the creators of the Cybermen and Daleks and being apocryphal to their own creations, the creators of the Rani got lazy and turned her into a female version of the Master in her second outing, "Time and the Rani". I found that change to be highly depressing back in the day. But given all the changes in season 24, it's not surprising either.
But a Time Lord changing gender wouldn't make them redundant. Given that the 12th Doctor Cyberman story introducing her would make far more sense if it were the Rani as the Master never was a biologist; personality has tweaks but underlying traits and skills have been less malleable. It's why the Doctor will never go into an ER and save a patient, but can build anything out of forks and wine corks and the audience fawns and drools over it. (And in the very next story to that escapade. the second Doctor returns and makes a lovely snide comment about television sets as the ultimate in-joke, ha!) Then again, the Rani would have to use the Cybermen for some personal experiment and not to take over the universe with, staring with modern day Earth again, moo-ha-ha-ha.
A show with a 50+ year history where the same name is given to just two individuals therein seems hard to mix up. That, and show makers claimed the Rani was too obscure to bring back. Which is strange, because they brought back the Macra, mentioned the Sensorites, and other creatures that were used once and not in revered stories and didn't have actors of Kate O'Mara's stature. So I think you nailed it regarding an era perceived to be less popular, or clinging to the myth or fan consensus cultism that dictates "80s are bad", which is subjective as with all things art-related. May as well say "heroin is awesome" and laugh as people swallow that too. But the Rani was more popular than the Macra and Odd, neither were played by actors of recognition and caliber like O'Mara, not to mention the Macra had quite a bit of a change between their outings. Fans of both can explain it off as a different era in the Macra's evolution or de-evolution or whatever.
That, and I don't think anyone could really nail the amoral aspects the way O'Mara excelled at. Much less coming up with storylines that didn't use her as an imitation Master. After "Time", even I felt it was impossible for the character to go back. (But the Daleks and Cybermen did get treated as "critters in cases" and "brains in robot bodies" after being treated by their respective creators as "total robot machines" in "Destiny of the Daleks" and "Revenge of the Cybermen" respectively, so it's not impossible. But not easy, and people would rather legalize illegal substances than refer to an era that had two or three million viewers fewer than the one preceding it. (Even if "The Mark of the Rani" had increased ins viewers to 7.3 million in part two after the strength of its its first part got the word spread... season 22 did see its increase as the season continued, even with "Timelash" (!!). )
Depends what they'd do with them. Romana already got her own e-space and came back to rule Gallifrey or got killed or made s'mores around a campfire with Drax, Leela, Andred and his spandex, and Rodan or something... it's gotten a bit too "small universe syndrome" for me.
Susan should have come back in series 10, after turning the 3-parter into a 2-parter as that third part felt underwhelming. Doctor thinks he and Bill are returning to 2017 modern day but they end up in 2183. David Campbell died of old age, or divorced or went to an asylum because he had no clue what that regeneration thing that he saw taking place in front of him was. As for regeneration, if it's like NuWHO's style then Susan's regeneration would have caused more explosive damage to the vicinity she was in than any drunken Dalek could... as well as a crispy fried David that wouldn't taste good in a s'more. I think "The Five Doctors" got it right in taking her out of time but how else could they bring her back?
I'd rather see another new time lord. The Doctor will have known many and to varying degrees, there's plenty of room - and time, if explored sparingly. It's one of the few things "The Twin Dilemma" got right, with Azmael.
"Stories?" Are you counting Dimensions in Time, or the tie-ins?
Hmm, now that I think about it, you're onto something. I don't know if I'd say she was nothing like the Master, but at least her priorities seemed different. She was a tyrant who ruled over Miasimia Goria and exploited its natives for her experiments, but it seemed like that rule was merely a means to the end of her research, a source of experimental subjects, rather than an end in itself as it would be for the Master.
Still, "Rani" is a title for royalty, not scientists, so there's definitely some degree of megalomania there.
No, of course not, but the producers of the show might consider the characters too similar. I'm just fishing for possible reasons they haven't used her in the new show; that doesn't mean I agree with those reasons. The history of TV is full of executives making decisions for poor or nonsensical reasons.
All of those could be a good possibility.
Now that you mention, that is an even better idea. Now, I'm kind of wanting a Jenny/Susan team up, The Doctor's daughter and grand daughter (not her daughter) working together is pretty easy to market. Have any stories ever dealt with which ever one of Susan's parents was the Doctor's kid? What about her grandmother?
No, other than references to the Doctor's family "sleeping in memory" unless s/he chooses to remember (and later statements post-Time War that they were "gone").
If Cartmel's Master Plan had come off, it would have been revealed that Susan was actually the granddaughter of The Other, the mysterious figure who aided Rassilon and Omega. The Doctor is the reincarnation of The Other (not regeneration - this involved shenanigans with the genetic looms that Cartmel wanted modern Time Lords to be produced by rather than natural childbirth - Susan's era was the last to have true children before a telepathic curse rendered Gallifreyans infertile, thus forcing Rassilon to come up with regeneration and the looms).
Whilst escaping Gallifrey with the Hand of Omega, the Doctor's TARDIS was taken back to the era of The Other (something normally impossible but the Hand enabled it) and rescued Susan, who was being persecuted by a mob due to Rassilon's political takeover of Gallifrey (which The Other opposed and sacrificed himself in the face of by jumping into the looms). Susan somehow perceived The Other in the Doctor and saw him as her grandfather, and for reasons he wasn't sure of he reciprocated.
If Cartmel's Master Plan had come off, it would have been revealed that Susan was actually the granddaughter of The Other, the mysterious figure who aided Rassilon and Omega. The Doctor is the reincarnation of The Other (not regeneration - this involved shenanigans with the genetic looms that Cartmel wanted modern Time Lords to be produced by rather than natural childbirth - Susan's era was the last to have true children before a telepathic curse rendered Gallifreyans infertile, thus forcing Rassilon to come up with regeneration and the looms).
Whilst escaping Gallifrey with the Hand of Omega, the Doctor's TARDIS was taken back to the era of The Other (something normally impossible but the Hand enabled it) and rescued Susan, who was being persecuted by a mob due to Rassilon's political takeover of Gallifrey (which The Other opposed and sacrificed himself in the face of by jumping into the looms). Susan somehow perceived The Other in the Doctor and saw him as her grandfather, and for reasons he wasn't sure of he reciprocated.
I'm so glad that whole "Other" business never came to fruition onscreen, though it seems the new show did something similar last season (which I haven't seen yet). I don't like the idea of the Doctor being some uniquely special, all-important figure in Time Lord history. I prefer the idea that the Doctor is just a rebel against a stagnant and elitist society, someone who rejected that elitism in favor of living among and helping the common people of the universe. Making the Doctor some legendary founder figure from the dawn of Time Lord society is embracing that elitism in spades.
I certainly don't see any reason to overcomplicate the Doctor's relationship with Susan by saying that she isn't really his granddaughter. The Doctor made it clear enough in "The Tomb of the Cybermen" that he had a family the same as most people, and that he'd left them behind and he missed them. There's nothing wrong with that. It gives the Doctor texture that I wish had been explored more.
I certainly don't see any reason to overcomplicate the Doctor's relationship with Susan by saying that she isn't really his granddaughter. The Doctor made it clear enough in "The Tomb of the Cybermen" that he had a family the same as most people, and that he'd left them behind and he missed them. There's nothing wrong with that. It gives the Doctor texture that I wish had been explored more.
@JD , honestly I'm not being flippant when I ask this, but have to seen 'An Unearthly Child", the debut episode of "Doctor Who"? There's quite a bit of interaction between Susan and her grandfather, setting up everything to follow. Better yet, if you manage to see it via the DVD box set titled "The Beginning", it includes the unaired version of the pilot episode . Same narrative, but there are differences in shots, the way lines are inflected and somewhat different dialogue. There's a more austere "air" about Susan, a line that implies she's "royalty" and that's reflected when sits upon a high back chair in the TARDIS, as though it's a throne.
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