The Tholian Web - Question/Thoughts

[BolianAuthor]

Okay... "The Tholian Web" is my favorite TOS episode, because I just love the Tholians... they're every kind of awesome. BUT... I'm always bugged by one thing in the whole episode...

Okay... to create the Tholian web, the ships had to physically connect with each other, and make the web strand by strand. Now... it occurred to me... IF the Enterprise had not been crippled, and was in normal space, what would have there been to prevent the ship from just warping away whilst the web was being constructed? It seems a pretty big weak point.

Now... I know many here hate ENT, and I am among them. BUT... I did love "In A Mirror, Darkly", and I liked how they depicted the Tholian web being formed via interlinking energy beam... it was fast and surprising. So... this is what I'm thinking, and I want your thoughts on this, as well...

I am speculating that in the same way that the spatial interphase crippled the Enterprise, it also somehow interfered with the ability of the Tholians to use a direct energy beam to construct their web, so they had to kind of "do it manually", and realizing that the Enterprise was stuck dead in space, with no power to its engines, they just took their sweet-arse time about it.

So what of it... do you think that in TOS the Tholians actually did in reality have another method of constructing the web, or do you think the technique shown would have still been effective, even in normal space?

 

[Timo]

Now... it occurred to me... IF the Enterprise had not been crippled, and was in normal space, what would have there been to prevent the ship from just warping away whilst the web was being constructed? It seems a pretty big weak point.

Why?

I mean, if the Enterprise were capable of warping away, then surely the Tholians would not have woven a web around her. They'd have blasted her to immobility first with their rayguns.

The web is claimed by Spock to be a device for crushing the Enterprise. Spock may be dead wrong and the Tholians' real intent was to imprison the ship; or then Spock may be right and the device is the Tholian way of scuttling an already immobilized ship without endangering their own ships or crews. Both are perfectly reasonable ways of using the device as depicted.

It's only fans and RPG players who have come up with the rather silly idea that the web is a generic weapon to be used against starships on all occasions, and indeed is the only weapon in the Tholian arsenal. Alas, ENT "IaMD" somewhat followed that silly idea. But "Tholian Web" did not yet suffer from such misconceptions.

For a real-world analogy, think of Errol Flynn's heroic pirate ship engaging some fat Spanish galleon. If the enemy fights back, Flynn may order his crew to board the enemy by using grappling lines and swinging ropes and boarding nets. If the enemy is already defeated, Flynn may order the galleon to be taken in tow with thick towing cables. Two (or four) very different ways of using rope, in two completely different tactical situations. Surely the Tholians also know of more than one way to use their trademark technology?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BolianAuthor]

^

I am not implying that it was their only weapon, nor am I debating the web's actual purpose... what I am wondering about is if you think that the Tholians were forced to make the web so slowly because of the spatial interphase, which prevented them from doing it a faster way, or if you think that that was the only way they could do it in TOS's time, and ENT just threw it all out the window... I'm not going to turn this into a debate about it being their primary weapon or not... I'm just curious if you buy "the interphase forced them to do it slowly" reasoning or not.

 

[Timo]

No, I'm thinking that the TOS and ENT webs were completely different weapons or tools for different purposes.

The TOS one doesn't seem to merely be a "slow" version of the ENT one. As you point out, it's also created by very different means. However, instead of interphase interference, the main reason making the TOS web so slow to spin might have been that there were only two ships available. In the ENT technique, three would be the minimum for creating an instantaneous 2D surface, and four for erecting a 3D web, with the ships staying at the nodes and feeding the web somehow (and the web collapsing as the ships are destroyed or forced to disengage).

Based on the two examples, I'd like to think that the web is a capturing instrument first and foremost; the ENT Tholians also deployed it against the Defiant to prevent the escape of that important prize. True, the ENT Tholians also possessed a tractor beam, at least in the Mirror universe. But they might still fight their wars with beam weapons, as in "Future Tense", while only using their various webs against helpless or outnumbered enemies.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BolianAuthor]

Okay, cool... I can buy that.

 

[Ssosmcin]

The web is claimed by Spock to be a device for crushing the Enterprise.

No, there's nothing in the episode which states that. First Spock identifies it as an energy field and then later it's called a tractor field. At the end of the episode, the Tholians begin to pull the Enterprise away.

The reason why it took so damned long for the Tholians to make the web in TOS, aside from script/ suspense purposes, was because one of the ships was damaged and there was only another ship in range. So, two Tholian vessels, one being damaged, probably take a lot longer to make the web than six or eight of them. And we don't know if they require the physical contact if both ships are functioning properly.

Actually, what bugs me about this episode is how much of a prick McCoy is to Spock. Yeah yeah, stresses, losing Kirk, interspace, and so on, but it was really over the top.

 

[Wingsley]

I had always assumed, ENT's "In a Mirror, Darkly" notwithstanding, that either the damage to Loskene's ship (due to the Enterprise's counter-attack) or perhaps due to the very nature of the Tholian technology itself, the Tholians had to "dock" to "manually" start their web. (Loskene's ship was adrift after the phaser barrage, so the damage concept does make sense.)

As with you, I also have problems with "In a Mirror, Darkly". The whole "Mirror Universe" saga had been worn out by DS9. They went to that well too many times. I could never make sense of the causality of "In a Mirror, Darkly" or any of the DS9 "Mirror"-sodes. It looked like an obvious "let's do an episode that brings back the Mirror universe" ploy on the part of the show's makers. I admit that, at first, I did not like TNG's "Yesterday's Enterprise", either. But "YE" makes loads more sense that any of the "mirror" derivatives. ("Mirror, Mirror" had logic problems of its own, like how Kirk and company managed to materialize in their counterparts' uniforms.)

As far as I'm concerned, "The Tholian Web" stands on its own, and we don't need to assume that nefarious schemes hatched in an alternate universe had anything to do with what happened to the Defiant. (It doesn't make sense that the "mirror" Tholians and Gorn would know what's going on in the "prime" universe in order to lure the Defiant into a trap anyway.) I was always satisfied down through the years with the notion that the Defiant was the victim of a natural phenomenon which may have effected the Tholians and the Enterprise as well.

 

[BolianAuthor]

I totally forgot about the damage to Loskene's ship... my bad... IDK how I missed that, but thanks for pointing it out... I agree, it does make sense.

As for McCoy riding Spock's ass during the episode, it was nowhere near as bad as in "The Galileo Seven", IMO.

 

[kkozoriz1]

I had always assumed, ENT's "In a Mirror, Darkly" notwithstanding, that either the damage to Loskene's ship (due to the Enterprise's counter-attack) or perhaps due to the very nature of the Tholian technology itself, the Tholians had to "dock" to "manually" start their web. (Loskene's ship was adrift after the phaser barrage, so the damage concept does make sense.)

As with you, I also have problems with "In a Mirror, Darkly". The whole "Mirror Universe" saga had been worn out by DS9. They went to that well too many times. I could never make sense of the causality of "In a Mirror, Darkly" or any of the DS9 "Mirror"-sodes. It looked like an obvious "let's do an episode that brings back the Mirror universe" ploy on the part of the show's makers. I admit that, at first, I did not like TNG's "Yesterday's Enterprise", either. But "YE" makes loads more sense that any of the "mirror" derivatives. ("Mirror, Mirror" had logic problems of its own, like how Kirk and company managed to materialize in their counterparts' uniforms.)

As far as I'm concerned, "The Tholian Web" stands on its own, and we don't need to assume that nefarious schemes hatched in an alternate universe had anything to do with what happened to the Defiant. (It doesn't make sense that the "mirror" Tholians and Gorn would know what's going on in the "prime" universe in order to lure the Defiant into a trap anyway.) I was always satisfied down through the years with the notion that the Defiant was the victim of a natural phenomenon which may have effected the Tholians and the Enterprise as well.

Ignoring the later Mirror epsisodes, perhaps Kirk & company didn't matirialize in their counterparts clothes, perhaps their minds matirialized in their counterparts bodies?

If Spock had been in the landing party perhaps he would have appeared with the goatee.

 

[Neutral Zone]

McCoy was always giving Spock a hard time, opened his gob first and always ended up looking syupid and saying sorry.

 

[Gary7]

First Spock identifies it as an energy field and then later it's called a tractor field. At the end of the episode, the Tholians begin to pull the Enterprise away.

For some reason, I was under the impression that the Tholians were seeking to entrap the Enterprise. Perhaps it's based on the analogy of a spider using a web to trap its prey. When the Enterprise is later thrown clear of the web, I thought this was the Enterprise escaping at the last minute. Watching the episode again, it's now more apparent to me that the Tholian web was intended to literally force the Enterprise out of Tholian space, something the Tholians had been insistent upon since the start of the encounter. Kirk was just lucky to have been thrown clear as well, so he could be easily beamed back aboard.

Actually, what bugs me about this episode is how much of a prick McCoy is to Spock. Yeah yeah, stresses, losing Kirk, interspace, and so on, but it was really over the top.

It really bothered me as well. The whole McCoy antagonism towards Spock does indeed get out of hand in some episodes and this one is probably the worst. I wonder if Kelly just went along with it, or put up a fuss? I'm just glad that at times, you do see McCoy warm up to Spock. Perhaps their relationship would have become more friendly if there'd ever been a season 4.


One other thing... I never saw an explanation for what happened to the Defiant. I got it how the Tholian space caused some kind of madness to humans, and the Defiant crew basically went homicidal on themselves. But what of the ship? It gets into this interphasic mode and then eventually "winks out." I wonder what caused it... Certainly it wasn't the Tholians, as the Enterprise never experienced this effect.

 

[CaptJimboJones]

I know many here hate ENT, and I am among them.

And many here like ENT just fine as well.

 

[Timo]

Kirk was just lucky to have been thrown clear as well, so he could be easily beamed back aboard.

That's what's left a bit unclear there. Spock orders transporters locked on Kirk's phantom at his mark, while they all still are in the interspace rift region, but he never gives that mark. Supposedly, his idea was to use the ship's engines to blast out of the web (via interspace and "under" the web, rather than via normal space and through the web) as soon as Kirk next manifested and was grabbable by transporter. He timed it down to the last second. And then he failed to give the transporter operator the timing cue he vitally needed!

This is one of the places where TOS-R would have done well to loop in an additional piece of dialogue. Not as easy as with "Corbomite Maneuver" where Sulu's missing line was already available on the soundtape of the promotional material of that ep - but certainly it would have been possible to catch Nimoy saying something suitable elsewhere in Trek (essentially, "Energize!"), and then loop this over the imagery of the ship escaping.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ssosmcin]

I totally forgot about the damage to Loskene's ship... my bad... IDK how I missed that, but thanks for pointing it out... I agree, it does make sense.

As for McCoy riding Spock's ass during the episode, it was nowhere near as bad as in "The Galileo Seven", IMO.

Actually Boma was the bigger jackass in Galileo Seven. McCoy was cranky, but it was also the first time spock was in command and even Bones was upset for Boma crossing the line. By The Tholan Web, he knew Spock well enough not to bring up some of the arguments he presented. The stuff in Kirk's quarters should have been the end of it, but some of it was still a little nuts to me. It felt like McCoy thought Spock was trying to take over and was afraid Kirk's final command would change that. Did he really think that after all that time or was it just the stresses of the situation coupled with the loss of Kirk?

 

[Timo]

Unfortunately, even if we "knew" the answer, it would be more or less meaningless, because McCoy and Spock in the episode were under the influence of the Space Sickness of the Week... They might have been manifesting deep subliminal sentiments they would never allow to surface in an ordinary day, or they might have been sprouting random rubbish.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CoveTom]

Not as easy as with "Corbomite Maneuver" where Sulu's missing line was already available on the soundtape of the promotional material of that ep - but certainly it would have been possible to catch Nimoy saying something suitable elsewhere in Trek (essentially, "Energize!"), and then loop this over the imagery of the ship escaping.

I'm not remembering this. What was the missing line from Corbomite?

 

[Commodore_Rook]

There are a few problems I had with this awesome episode. One, the effect of the area causing the "space madness". With the advent of it really being a portal to the Mirror Universe, the "madness" or evil leaking in, makes sense, yet why did the entire crew of the Defiant kill themselves??? Surely a few tough folks would have survived? Next was the fact the Tholians took FOREVER to make the web, and was clearly a weapon ONLY good for an immobile vessel. Also, the fact Kirk kept "appearing" to the crew as a manifestation didn't make much sense. And I forget how exactly did Enterprise escape the finished web?

Yes, In a Mirror Darkly was one of my fav ENT episodes and did show the sheer awesomeness of a Constitution class Starship! (even with half her systems removed!)

 

[Timo]

What was the missing line from Corbomite?

The scary Balok was reminding our heroes that the countdown to their doom was still ongoing; he was supposed to be saying over the comm lines "You now have one minute", but that wasn't looped into the aired episode (although as mentioned, it was in the trailer for the episode). It's funny, then, that Sulu responds to this line by saying "I knew he would [remind us]", when the actual line is not heard.

why did the entire crew of the Defiant kill themselves??? Surely a few tough folks would have survived?

Not indefinitely, and the other starship had probably been in there for a long time.

Next was the fact the Tholians took FOREVER to make the web, and was clearly a weapon ONLY good for an immobile vessel.

Why should that be a problem? Clearly the Tholians had other weapons (such as their red rayguns) that would make them respectable adversaries. The web just added to their mix, much like Kirk's ship had a tractor beam in addition to the phasers and torps.

And I forget how exactly did Enterprise escape the finished web?

By going into the other universe for a brief while...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[siskokid888]

Now... it occurred to me... IF the Enterprise had not been crippled, and was in normal space, what would have there been to prevent the ship from just warping away whilst the web was being constructed? It seems a pretty big weak point.

Why?

I mean, if the Enterprise were capable of warping away, then surely the Tholians would not have woven a web around her. They'd have blasted her to immobility first with their rayguns.

The web is claimed by Spock to be a device for crushing the Enterprise. Spock may be dead wrong and the Tholians' real intent was to imprison the ship; or then Spock may be right and the device is the Tholian way of scuttling an already immobilized ship without endangering their own ships or crews. Both are perfectly reasonable ways of using the device as depicted.

It's only fans and RPG players who have come up with the rather silly idea that the web is a generic weapon to be used against starships on all occasions, and indeed is the only weapon in the Tholian arsenal. Alas, ENT "IaMD" somewhat followed that silly idea. But "Tholian Web" did not yet suffer from such misconceptions.

For a real-world analogy, think of Errol Flynn's heroic pirate ship engaging some fat Spanish galleon. If the enemy fights back, Flynn may order his crew to board the enemy by using grappling lines and swinging ropes and boarding nets. If the enemy is already defeated, Flynn may order the galleon to be taken in tow with thick towing cables. Two (or four) very different ways of using rope, in two completely different tactical situations. Surely the Tholians also know of more than one way to use their trademark technology?

Timo Saloniemi

Sorry, Timo, I have to disagree on this one. I always thought that the web in TOS made no sense as anything more than a plot device. With such things as tractor beams available, why would an advance race use this web thing to tow a disabled ship? And they have apparently strong projectile weapons - why would they need it as a weapon? I thought the ENT version made much more sense - a quickly deployed forcefield that would limit a ship's movement and make it vulnerable to attack. I have a hard time seeing how the TOS version is practicle.

 

[Timo]

I was already corrected on the crushing aspect: the web was not a weapon, as far as we know. It was simply a means of trapping the Enterprise, and that as such was a perfectly plausible goal for the Tholians. They couldn't take the big bear head on, but they could trap her in a web and then either bludgeon her to death with their usual weapons, or tow her home.

As for why they don't use a tractor beam instead, perhaps they don't have one? Our ENT heroes didn't have one, and used cables to catch adversary ships. Tholians might use webs for the purpose. (At least in the middle of a spatial anomaly that possibly disrupts tractor beams...)

IMHO, the ENT version made no sense whatsoever. Nets are useless as weapons in the general case, because a prime requirement for their deployment is the ability to outflank the enemy (usually, and also in the ENT web case, by greatly outnumbering the enemy). Why would you deliberately handicap yourself by requiring this ability of yourself, when any line-of-sight weapon can give you a kill without flanking and superior numbers? And when said line-of-sight weapon can directly kill, whereas a net can only imprison and perhaps indirectly kill?

Things coming in contact with the ENT web wires exploded. So why didn't the Tholians simply spit single wires, or even tiny fragments of wires, at the enemy, and watch the fireworks? Why did they deploy hundreds of kilometers of useless wire that never came to contact with the enemy, just for the purpose of making a few meters of the wire come to contact? Why did the web contract extremely slowly, when the wires themselves appeared between the web-erecting ships at lightning speed?

Timo Saloniemi