The Romulan Fleet before the War

[Dukhat]

I'm not talking about Bruce Maddox. Bruce Maddox has nothing to do with the discussion about why the Zhat Vash reprogrammed the Utopia Planitia androids to destroy the evacuation fleet.

The Zhat Vash 'accomplished' getting Federation nonsentient androids banned at the expense of their entire race becoming virtually extinct.

 

[NCC-73515]

It don't remember the full details because it was a mess, but I think the Zhat Vash droid sabotage (to stop some tentacle debacle) and the supernova itself were separate things.
The Romulans didn't trust that the evacuation ships were really there to help them, because propaganda denied any nova threat, and they thought this is the Federation's way to conquer them without a single shot. Not forced relocation, but convinced relocation disguised as help. That's why the rescue fleet was destroyed, and if there hadn't been any droids to take over, they probably still would've hacked into the weapons systems themselves and attacked Utopia from within. It might even have been a regular Tal Shiar sabotage operation at first, regardless of droids, but then the Zhat Vash inside the Tal Shiar saw its chance to also get rid of droids and stop further AI development in the Federation.

 

[Dukhat]

The Romulans didn't trust that the evacuation ships were really there to help them, because propaganda denied any nova threat, and they thought this is the Federation's way to conquer them without a single shot. Not forced relocation, but convinced relocation disguised as help. That's why the rescue fleet was destroyed, and if there hadn't been any droids to take over, they probably still would've hacked into the weapons systems themselves and attacked Utopia from within.

I don't recall any of that being stated in the show, but my recollection could be hazy.

 

[The Wormhole]

They create a Calamity using the A500 Androids.

They make it impossible to trace it to the Zhat Vash.

Raffi made the connection right away.

I don't recall any of that being stated in the show, but my recollection could be hazy.

It wasn't stated in the show, a lot of that came from the tie-in material, like the Romulan government generating nova denying propaganda was a central theme in the novel The Last Best Hope, complete with the Tal Shiar kidnapping prominent scientists who could figure out the truth and beating them to be silent and a Romulan analogue to Fox News to help legitimize the propaganda.

 

[Dukhat]

It wasn't stated in the show, a lot of that came from the tie-in material, like the Romulan government generating nova denying propaganda was a central theme in the novel The Last Best Hope, complete with the Tal Shiar kidnapping prominent scientists who could figure out the truth and beating them to be silent and a Romulan analogue to Fox News to help legitimize the propaganda.

Ah, ok.

Any show that needs tie-in material to explain what's going on in the show, has failed in its purpose.

 

[Arpy]

These events could have been disconnected and different players could have had different motivations in them, with the Romulan people, the Tal Shiar, and the Zhat Vash seeing things differently.

I’m assuming for this thread that the supernova and the synth attack are connected in some way. Whether the Romulans instigated the supernova or simply used it to their advantage.

If the idea was to force a total synth ban, some of them going nuts wouldn’t be enough. It would have to be something so horrific that even questioning their course of action in the matter would be a touchy subject for the next century.

Additionally, the more horrific the broader the suspicion of synth technology would stretch. If the “thousands of species” who relied on the Federation, and many others friend and foe, also became suspect of the tech, that much the better.

Finally, Bruce Maddox and Coppelius didn't really matter. The Romulan fleet would have destroyed the colony if Picard didn’t convince Soji to stop what she was doing.

The Adminition did not mean the AI’s would necessarily destroy all intelligent biological life. That was how biological minds interpreted the message, but it was primarily a way for artificial minds to know they were part of something greater and for them to call for help if they needed it. By letting Soji change her mind Picard (and biologics) gained her trust, and the even the Romulans gained a (distant) allie.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Raffi made the connection right away.

She was looked as a Crack Pot and was eventually ousted from SF Intelligence.

It took the better part of 20+ years before she could prove her conspiracy theory to be true.

 

[knightgrace]

The destruction of the evacuation fleet, was to prevent any level of cultural contamination. After all, Romulans are arrogant beyond all measure...

There is no possibility that they are in the wrong...

 

[evilchumlee]

And for the rest of the audience.

The fact i'm part of the audience shows that is not true.

No. Their plan wasn’t to sacrifice Romulan lives. Their plan was to destroy AI. The fact that they did so in the stupidest way imaginable, and directly causing the first thing to happen, was undoubtedly not what they were intending. And if they were intending that to happen, it just proves how stupid the writers the Zhat Vash were.

You just going to ignore that this caused the Federation to go ham on banning AI?

 

[Dukhat]

The fact i'm part of the audience shows that is not true.

Then explain to me the logic behind what the Zhat Vash did, by cutting off their nose to spite their face?

You just going to ignore that this caused the Federation to go ham on banning AI?

I didn't ignore it. I said that it was the stupidest way for them to have accomplished that goal. Again, explain to me the logic of getting the Federation to ban AI by sacrificing the entire Romulan race to certain death.

 

[evilchumlee]

Then explain to me the logic behind what the Zhat Vash did, by cutting off their nose to spite their face?

It's somewhat hard to apply logic to extremists, but it's not super difficult in this case. I'll make points.

*The Zhat Vash are laser focused on eliminating synthetic lifeforms.

*The REASON they are so laser focused is they have the knowledge of the extra-dimensional beings who show up ever few hundred thousand years to eradicate all non-synthetic life in the galaxy.

*The Zhat Vash don't particularly care about "their people", from their perspective they have a higher calling and are defending the entire galaxy, not just Romulans.

*The Mars attack had dual benefits of killing a bunch of synthetic lifeforms while ALSO spurring the Federation, probably the largest polity in the galaxy, where they have fairly little influence, to also go about eliminating synthetic lifeforms.

Think of less as "cutting off your nose to spite your face" and more of a situation of cutting off an infected limb to spare the rest of the body. The destruction of Romulus was acceptable, given the outcome of getting the Federation to axe synthetic life.

I didn't ignore it. I said that it was the stupidest way for them to have accomplished that goal. Again, explain to me the logic of getting the Federation to ban AI by sacrificing the entire Romulan race to certain death.

The logic is they don't care about the Romulans, they care about the galaxy as a whole.

A quote from Captain America: Winter Soldier, "I don't care about a ship. I care about the fleet."

A bunch of non-Zhat Vash Romulans died to the benefit of having the Federation ban synthetic life. It didn't hurt the Zhat Vash at all. It DID hurt synthetic life.

That's a win. That's an absolute win.

 

[Arpy]

Then explain to me the logic behind what the Zhat Vash did, by cutting off their nose to spite their face?



I didn't ignore it. I said that it was the stupidest way for them to have accomplished that goal. Again, explain to me the logic of getting the Federation to ban AI by sacrificing the entire Romulan race to certain death.

It wasn’t the entire Romulan race, and one possibility has been suggested here numerous times. Millions of wealthy and powerful Romulans survived just fine. Look at the massive fleet they sent to Coppelius. The ongoing Borg tech mining on the Artifact. The clandestine operations both on Earth (like the one that killed Dahj and her boyfriend) and in the Federation’s highest echelons of power (Commodore Oh). There’s plenty of Romulans in Federation, non Federation, and Romulan territories. And, from the Zhat Vash perspective, they saved themselves and the galaxy from interstellar genocide. From the Tal Shiar and ancient family perspective, they got rid of the rabble. Let Nero cry for them. Romulus itself was but an island. Onward Odysseus (or rather Aeneas) goes to the next one.

 

[evilchumlee]

While it's not canon, the Picard prequel novelization does a really great job of describing the situation. It's essentially that... yes, alot of Romulans died. Alot of Romulans who the Romulans in power didn't care about. Anyone important was evacuated. Whoever was left on Romulus was considered to be completely expendable. The Romulan government was actively even withholding the information on what was going down to the people left on Romulus. It was basically "carry on, nothing to see here, don't worry about it."

The Romulans don't quite have the same value of lives that we do. The Romulan government, not even the Zhat Vash, just didn't care. They got the rich, powerful, wealthy and important out. They couldn't have possibly cared less about the others on the planet.

The more disturbing thought is that like, Remans are probably an endangered species at this point. Nobody would have bothered to evacuate them.

 

[Dukhat]

The Zhat Vash don't particularly care about "their people", from their perspective they have a higher calling and are defending the entire galaxy, not just Romulans.

The logic is they don't care about the Romulans, they care about the galaxy as a whole.

See, this is the crux of your argument, and there is nothing in the show that backs up that they didn't care about their own people.

It wasn’t the entire Romulan race, and it has been explained to you numerous times. Millions of wealthy and powerful Romulans survived just fine.

So? Did the Zhat Vash give a crap about rich Romulans when they came up with their plan?

 

[evilchumlee]

See, this is the crux of your argument, and there is nothing in the show that backs up that they didn't care about their own people.

The show was literally about the Zhat Vash making the synths destroy the evacuation fleet that would kill the effort to evacuate Romulus...

It's like. The plot of the show.

So? Did the Zhat Vash give a crap about rich Romulans when they came up with their plan?

The Zhat Vash didn't care about anyone. They cared about killing the most amount of synths.

When Bid Laden launched the 9/11 attacks, do think he was like, "Well, but what if I do this, and the United States moves a massive military presence into the middle east and alot of my people end up dying?"

No. He didn't. He was an extremist who was laser focused on his extremist goals.

 

[Dukhat]

The show was literally about the Zhat Vash making the synths destroy the evacuation fleet that would kill the effort to evacuate Romulus...

It's like. The plot of the show.

And it's like. The point I'm making about how stupid their plan was.

The Zhat Vash didn't care about anyone. They cared about killing the most amount of synths.

When Bid Laden launched the 9/11 attacks, do think he was like, "Well, but what if I do this, and the United States moves a massive military presence into the middle east and alot of my people end up dying?"

No. He didn't. He was an extremist who was laser focused on his extremist goals.

The other poster brought up the rich guys escaping, not me.

 

[evilchumlee]

And it's like. The point I'm making about how stupid their plan was.

You said, "...there is nothing in the show that backs up that they didn't care about their own people."

The fact that their plan involved destroying the evacuation fleet that was to save people from Romulus was seem to clearly indicate that they don't care about the people on Romulus.

You can think the plan is stupid. That's fine, you can have an opinion.

The objective fact is that their plan worked. The Mars synths were destroyed. The Federation banned synthetic life. The plan worked perfectly.

 

[Arpy]

So? Did the Zhat Vash give a crap about rich Romulans when they came up with their plan?

Yes. The reason they were against the AI genocide of biological life is because they didnt’t want themselves, their loved ones, and their cohort to die.

 

[Dukhat]

You said, "...there is nothing in the show that backs up that they didn't care about their own people."

The fact that their plan involved destroying the evacuation fleet that was to save people from Romulus was seem to clearly indicate that they don't care about the people on Romulus.

You can think the plan is stupid. That's fine, you can have an opinion.

The objective fact is that their plan worked. The Mars synths were destroyed. The Federation banned synthetic life. The plan worked perfectly.

At the expense of their own people, as I keep saying. If that was indeed their plan all along and they didn't give a shit that their own race was going to die in the process, then it was a stupid plan whether it worked for them or not. Not sure how much more I need to say about that.

Yes. The reason they were against the AI genocide of biological life is because they didnt’t want themselves, their loved ones, and their cohort to die.

Huh? Who was against the AI genocide of biological life? The rich guys?

 

[Arpy]

Huh? Who was against the AI genocide of biological life? The rich guys?

The Romulan power elite. Do you think the Tal Shiar gives a flying fuck about the street urchins huddling in rags on the streets of Ki Baratan? Or the lower and middle class laborers and merchants, the stim users and holo-losers? They cared about their own continuity. They shed the useless bulk of the hoi polloi and had to deal with fewer constituents/threats to their power.