We only got to see a few "Spaghetti Tendrils".
We hardly saw enough to see the full might of their fleet.
The Romulan Fleet before the War
- Thread starter Arpy
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We hardly saw enough to see the full might of their fleet.
That wasn't actually my point, although admittedly I could have worded it better.
The fact that the Zhat Vash destroyed the ships that would have saved their own people because of their ideology or hatred of 'Real AI' was absurd upon finding out that it was because they didn't like androids. The androids working at Utopia Planitia were mindless automatons, and not even close to 'AI.' It would be like having a hatred of the manufacturing robots that built your car.
And really, what did the Zhat Vash actually accomplish? If they could gain access to those androids that they supposedly hated, why didn't they just command them to destroy themselves? Why did they reprogram them to destroy the one thing that would have saved their race?
It's okay, I understood enough of what you were hinting at.
Not all actions by "Extremist Cults" make sense.
That's what the Zhat Vash were/are.
And they were technically "Sort of Correct".
While Soji Asha is not "The Destroyer" as foretold in their prophecies.
There is a extreme force of Synthetic Life living in a Another Dimension that could be summoned that would wipe out Organic Life while seeking out to save Synthetic Life.
The fact that the threat exists means that they'll probably remain in the shadows, watching over any society that has advanced forms of Synthetic Life that could be a risk to Organic Life.
True, but the fact that "Data Existed" and was part of the UFP and that the Synth existed out there.
I'm sure the Zhat Vash was smart enough to piece together Bruce Maddox & Data being the origins of the "Modern Synth".
The fact that they existed and that they killed at least a few of them mean they were on "The Hunt" to find their origins along with their home planet that was very well hidden.
Wipe out a few Advanced Synths.
They accomplished killing at least 3x of them.
Dahj, & the 2x Synths that visited Rios ship.
Almost risking war with the UFP over killing a the Synth Colony who were hiding out in UFP territory.
They did, the A500's killed many Utopia Planetia Workers on the "Attack on Mars" before they turned the weapons in on themselves.
Don't expect Logical Behavior from extremist groups.
Zhat Vash believes they're saving "All Organic Life" from a existential threat.
AI or Synthetic Life that could go evil and wipe out Organic Life.
Given what we saw in Discovery and how one of the possible futures was all Organic Life in the Milky Way Galaxy was gone, that threat is very real.
The fact that they kept this information secret from pretty much everybody, even most of the Tal Shiar since they were a "Sub Sect" & "Legend" that most didn't believe that they exist.
The Zhat Vash were 1000's of years old as a secret order.
Even within the secretive Tal Shiar, very few believed in their existence.
They were a secret society within a secret intelligence group.
But given the events of ST:PIC S1, those within the UFP should now know that the "Zhat Vash" are very real, and that they exist.
Their secret society got outed to the wider Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers.
So any old mysteries relating to mysterious deaths of (AI/Androids/Synthetic Life-forms) can probably be linked back to the Zhat Vash.
I'm sure the Tal Shiar aren't particularly happy that they have members within their own Intelligence Service that aren't fully loyal to them and have ulterior motives.
This should help seperate the Zhat Vash from the rest of the Tal Shiar given how large of a fleet that General Oh was leading.
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Given the nature of the threat in the Admonition, one that would destroy all intelligent biological life in the galaxy, it was could actually be seen as pretty noble of the Romulans to make that great a sacrifice to stop it. That is, one the one hand. On the other, if the rest if organic life goes, so do the Romulans too, so it was also in their own self interests to do what they (might have) done. But we shouldn’t think only of the Federation as noble or involved in grander adventures.
Also, the synth plan might have been completely separate from the supernova, but it’s a hell of a coincidence two such hugely significant things happening at the same time. Supernovas are very rare in nature. Romulan skullduggery is very much not. I would not be surprised in half the talking heads on the newscomms were questioning the supernova during that whole period. I mean there was no love lost for many when evacuation fleet was destroyed.
Also, the synth plan might have been completely separate from the supernova, but it’s a hell of a coincidence two such hugely significant things happening at the same time. Supernovas are very rare in nature. Romulan skullduggery is very much not. I would not be surprised in half the talking heads on the newscomms were questioning the supernova during that whole period. I mean there was no love lost for many when evacuation fleet was destroyed.
The Tal Shiar seems to be doing just fine in PIC.
The Zhat Vash are exremists and extremist do extremist things. It seems like the Romulans weren't even totally super on board with the Federation evacuation, not even on a Zhat Vash/Tal Shiar level. They were sort of begrudgingly accepting it. The Zhat Vash didn't really care if Romulus blew up. THEIR people were fine, and if the Romulan Empire proper dies, so be it. They will continue on.
The Synths were definitely "close" to AI. They weren't quite Data level, but they WERE built FROM (a piece) of Data.
We know from Discovery that they can absolutely develop into true AI. There's one still kicking around in the 32nd century.
You're putting a very human perspective on that.
The Zhat Vash are composed of Romulans, but being the extremists that they are, they likely identify as... Zhat Vash. They don't care about Romulans. Romulans are acceptable causalities.
Although on a deeper cultural level, if the Zhat Vash do still consider themselves Romulans and do care, they may well see the Federation evacuation as more of a soft conquering. The Federation fleet evacuates them, resettles them, gives them aid... feels like they're pretty much a part of the Federation at that point, and they ABSOLUTELY have at the very least become reliant on the Federation.
From their perspective, it may have been preferable to let Romulus die, the Zhat Vash could get the people they needed/wanted off Romulus on their own and continue to exist not under the thumb of the Federation. Having the synths kill Mars killed two birds with one stone. The Federation stayed away AND they destroyed a bunch of evil AI's. Win-win.
Sorry, not buying any of that. Extremists or not, you don't cut off your nose to spite your face. The Federation was graciously building new transports to help the Romulan people evacuate before their sun went nova. The only reason why the Zhat Vash reprogrammed the dumb androids and the automated defense systems was because of their hatred of AI. Using those robots to then destroy the evacuation fleet had nothing to do with their hatred of AI. It made no sense whatsoever. Those ships were the only means of getting the majority of the Romulans off the planet, and the Zhat Vash just doomed them all to death because of their stupidity. You say I have a human perspective? Well, yeah, because the show was written for humans to watch. Romulans aren't aliens; they're fictional people created and written by real humans, and their actions should be understood by the audience watching them. Saying 'Oh, they're aliens so you shouldn't assume they'll act like humans' is a cop-out.
Humans to watch…to get an alien perspective.
I dunno, Bond villains…and certain conservative and Ayn Rand types…are all about destroying the world to restart with a few ubermenschen. They’re in it for themselves. Is it really as alien an idea as it may seem?
Consider the broader plot might have been to discredit synths to the entire galaxy. And it worked.
They got the aristocracy out. That’s what they cared about.
Especially the fact that they were too stupid to realize they were bringing on the very thing they were trying to avoid, when it was glaringly obvious.
It's not an alien perspective. Star Trek aliens are just amalgams of humans. Like the TOS Klingons were stereotypical Russians. And what 'perspective' did we gain from that?
Nope, not buying it. If they wanted the aristocracy out, they would have done the same thing Shinzon did: assassinate them in their own chamber. That way, all the other innocents who made up 95% of the Romulan people would not have been sacrificed for their stupid plan.
If you’re married to the idea that they have to be so that’s all they’ll ever be to you.
The aristocracy wanted themselves saved and didn’t give a damn about the 95%.
Without being too explicit about real world current events, that’s not at all unrealistic.
If you say so. Doesn’t change my point.
Also doesn’t change how stupid their plan was.
Extremists do that like, all the time.
It's fairly clear that the Romulan government didn't particularly want the Federations help.
The thing is, you also seemed to miss the additional knock-on effects from the synth attack. It caused the Federation to ban synthetic beings. If the Zhat Vash had just programmed to kill themselves, the Federation would have responded more with a "well that sucked?" and went about it's business.
The Zhat Vash making it appear as if there was some fatal flaw inherent in synthetic beings? They got to enact their agenda across the whole-ass Federation.
All it cost was Romulus and a bunch of Romulan lives. Acceptable loses.
At no point are the Zhat Vash ever characterized as caring at all about the majority of Romulans...
I'm a human, and I understood their actions...
And for the rest of the audience.
No. Their plan wasn’t to sacrifice Romulan lives. Their plan was to destroy AI. The fact that they did so in the stupidest way imaginable, and directly causing the first thing to happen, was undoubtedly not what they were intending. And if they were intending that to happen, it just proves how stupid
Did you really think the Zhat Vash were able to predict that Bruce Maddox would scurry off with Alton Inigo Soong onto some backwards random Planet and create a Synth Colony?
I doubt anybody could've predicted that.
Not this member of the audience. I would rather not have aliens always act like humans. It’s the difference between sci-fi and fantasy.
I mean, the Platonians whittled their population down to forty supermen. They cried not a tear for the rest of their brethren. In the real world we’re hearing that humans soon won’t be needed for most jobs, that we’ll have AI’s to do white collar jobs, and robots to do blue collar jobs. Couple that with the idea that empathy is weakness, that the rich are buying doomsday property (in case of war or climate collapse) in New Zealand, and draw your own conclusions.
In the PIC book Last Best Hope, the Romulans knew their world was doomed and stopped the Federation scientists from working with their own pto stop the supernova. Maintaining their status quo was their concern. Again, they got their leadership and upper echelons out, and left the rest to burn.
What does any of that have to do with the reprogrammed androids destroying the evacuation fleet?
Zhat Vash wants the UFP to ban their development of Androids / AI's.
They create a Calamity using the A500 Androids.
They make it impossible to trace it to the Zhat Vash.
The only conclusion was that Android AI was dangerous, ergo UFP wide ban on AI.
I doubt they figured that Bruce Maddox would run off to the middle of no where to continue his work along with a descendent of Noonien Soong.
The only reason that the Copellius Synths even exist was because of Bruce Maddox running off to work with Alton Inigo Soong to recreate Data and move beyond that type of AI / Android.
They were successful on their initial goals.
They didn't forsee other issues that might arise, like lone-wolves going out to execute their dreams like Bruce Maddox.
The hardest thing to predict is the lone wolf.
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With you so far.
Again, none of which has anything to do with their stupid plan to have the androids at Utopia Planitia destroy all the evacuation ships. If they wanted to create a 'calamity using the A500 androids,' then they should have reprogrammed them to kill all the workers, not destroy the ships. Because those ships were going to be rescuing the Romulan people, who the Zhat Vash had nothing against.
The Zhat Vash programming the androids to destroy those ships simply doesn't make any sense, no matter what spin you try to put on it.
That plan was only to get Androids / AI Development banned in the UFP.
The Zhat Vash accomplished that.
That had nothing to do with Bruce Maddox directly or specifically.
Bruce Maddox's actions were that of a "Lone Wolf", a passionate AI/Android/Cybernetics researcher who left on his own to fulfill his dream outside of the UFP.
Where it was legal to do so.
One of the "Unforseen Consequences" of the Zhat Vashes actions was to drive Bruce Maddox to go outside the UFP, eventually meeting up with Alton Inigo Soong.
Nobody forsaw that the two smart men would suceed in creating Synths.
Basically all of "Bruce Maddoxes" actions were a form of "Unforseen Consequences".
"Bruce Maddox" might've never been sucessful if he didn't leave the UFP.
Remember what Geordi said about the Synth/Golem body, it was a work of art, literally on a different level than what Data was.
Data was "Childs Play" in comparison to what a Synth was / can do.
The UFP has yet to be able to mass produce "Data", yet the Synths are orders of magnitude more complex, realistic, and more amazing / life-like.
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