The Romulan Fleet before the War

[Arpy]

In “In Purgatory’s Shadow,” Sisko says:

SISKO: A Dominion invasion of the Alpha Quadrant will affect Cardassia every bit as much as it's going to affect us. Besides, we need all the help we can get. The Dominion picked a perfect time to invade. The Cardassian fleet is in shambles, the Romulans are not much better off, and between the Klingon War and the recent Borg attack, Starfleet's spread pretty thin.​

​

What was going on with the Romulan empire that their fleet was not much better off than the Cardassians’ who had been in a losing war with the Klingons for a year—who were a people “on the brink.” Is there anything we find out or can infer from the canon overall?

Borg incursions in the Beta Quadrant? Could the Romulans have been responsible for the downing of Hugh’s scout? Some fans have speculated that Borg activity could have been what kept them busy for 50 years before TNG.

Could it have something to do with synths? Or whatever lead to the supernova in ST ‘09?

 

[somebuddyX]

Back when it aired I assumed he was talking about what happened when the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar teamed up. I thought the Tal Shiar had been decimated and it put the Romulans into the same kind of situation the Cardassians were at in the start of "The Way of the Warrior," not just they lacked the ships but the manpower and drive. Back then I thought the fleets the different nations had were much smaller, like in my mind the Wolf 359 fleet of 40 ships was significant, so when the Romulans lost a bunch of warbirds at the Omarion Nebula it wasn't just something they shrugged off. Now all that said, that wasn't the case at all.
So I don't know.

 

[NCC-73515]

Since the Klingon war is connected to the Cardie fleet, the Romulan situation could be connected to the Borg attack (FC) he mentions, like that cube flying through Romulan space first before getting to Earth. Perhaps a larger fleet of cubes got reduced to 1 by the Rommies.

 

[Arpy]

Back when it aired I assumed he was talking about what happened when the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar teamed up. I thought the Tal Shiar had been decimated and it put the Romulans into the same kind of situation the Cardassians were at in the start of "The Way of the Warrior," not just they lacked the ships but the manpower and drive. Back then I thought the fleets the different nations had were much smaller, like in my mind the Wolf 359 fleet of 40 ships was significant, so when the Romulans lost a bunch of warbirds at the Omarion Nebula it wasn't just something they shrugged off. Now all that said, that wasn't the case at all.
So I don't know.

Right, I had forgotten about that. Though those were secret buildups of Tal Shiar/Obsidian Order fleets, not their main [military] fleets.

Maybe the loss of investment, matériel, and the bulk of their intelligence force sidelined them. That was the point of that two-parter, right? That after that day the only threat to the Dominion would be the Klingons and Federation. This episode was an attempt to cripple them too.

*So great the Romulans just appeared at the end to join the other two fleets and stop the would be Dominion invasion.

Since the Klingon war is connected to the Cardie fleet, the Romulan situation could be connected to the Borg attack (FC) he mentions, like that cube flying through Romulan space first before getting to Earth. Perhaps a larger fleet of cubes got reduced to 1 by the Rommies.

Or they tried defending their territory with a large fleet and had their own 359—or series of.

It would be interesting to get more stories about incidents like FC from the perspective of other alien powers. Or incidents like that exclusively involving other alien powers. It’s not all happening just to the Federation, or our main crew.

…and the consequences of them. Maybe the reason we don’t see the Romulans or Tzenkethi or Gorn for a while is they pissed off the wrong Tkon or Douwd or Metron.

 

[somebuddyX]

Right, I had forgotten about that. Though those were secret buildups of Tal Shiar/Obsidian Order fleets, not their main [military] fleets.

Maybe the loss of investment, matériel, and the bulk of their intelligence force sidelined them. That was the point of that two-parter, right? That after that day the only threat to the Dominion would be the Klingons and Federation. This episode was an attempt to cripple them too.

*So great the Romulans just appeared at the end to join the other two fleets and stop the would be Dominion invasion.

I was so convinced of this idea that the same year when I was doing some fanfiction for the Star Trek series that I thought would replace Voyager, which I assumed would still be in the 24th Century, I had the Romulan government have collapsed by 2378 and needed Federation aid.

 

[Arpy]

I dunno, the Romulans had been around for 2000+ years on Romulus alone. I wouldn't count their collapse.

I mean, these fuckers blew up their own sun and half their population to execute their broader plans. I'm sure they're rebuilding and doing their thing.

 

[somebuddyX]

I dunno, the Romulans had been around for 2000+ years on Romulus alone. I wouldn't count their collapse.

I mean, these fuckers blew up their own sun and half their population to execute their broader plans. I'm sure they're rebuilding and doing their thing.

Oh definitely. But I was like 15 at the time, and I wasn't counting the Klingon invasion and I had written off the Romulans as a minor power. It was just really funny that it was the backbone of my fanfiction, like I had the Romulans get invaded by another minor power, who then got invaded by the Klingons, who then got invaded by my big bad of the series. And then when Season 6 came along and put things into perspective I've looked back at the fanfiction like WTF

 

[NCC-73515]

We don't know why the sun blew up or who did it

 

[Arpy]

We don't know why the sun blew up or who did it

Oh? I’m forgetting the details of all that. I was thinking they did it seeing how much artificial life was beginning to take hold and, Admonition in mind, they masterminded a scheme to discredit it across half the galaxy.

 

[knightgrace]

Somebody blew it up.
This is not the real problem.

The real problem is why was Ambassador Spock's ship so slow?

 

[Deks]

Back when it aired I assumed he was talking about what happened when the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar teamed up. I thought the Tal Shiar had been decimated and it put the Romulans into the same kind of situation the Cardassians were at in the start of "The Way of the Warrior," not just they lacked the ships but the manpower and drive. Back then I thought the fleets the different nations had were much smaller, like in my mind the Wolf 359 fleet of 40 ships was significant, so when the Romulans lost a bunch of warbirds at the Omarion Nebula it wasn't just something they shrugged off. Now all that said, that wasn't the case at all.
So I don't know.

This would make sense.
Even if the Romulans on the whole have a large armada of ships and personnel, it stands to reason that the Tal Shiar, when it launched the campaign with the Obsidian Order against the Dominion, they all (or pretty much all of them) went on that campaign.
Given the Tal Shiar is a relatively secret organisation, their total amount of personnel would be tiny vs the Star Empire's regular personnel that serve on their other ships.

So basically, after the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar were defeated, Romulus and Cardassia experienced these effects.
The Romulans probably have better contingencies, but they seem to have undergone some changes.
The fall of the Obsidian Order resulted in military losing its power, or it sufficiently weakened the power structure where the civilian government was able to take over (at least temporarily).

The Dominion then swoops in, Dukat made a deal with them and tried to grab power.
The Romulans retreated behind their borders and kept still for the most part.

If I also remember correctly, shortly after the war started (a few months into it), the Romulans tried stealing the USS Prometheus (VOY - Message in a Bottle).

You know it actually struck me that SF had the 'perfect opportunity' to hold this against the Romulans and use it to drag them secretly into the war - hence there was actually no need for 'In the Pale Moonlight' or Sisko's overall actions.

The Romulans on the Prometheus to our knowledge were NOT retrieved by their comrades on the Warbirds, but instead, SF took them into custody - and I suspect the Romulans couldn't afford the embarrassment.

 

[NCC-73515]

Somebody blew it up.
This is not the real problem.

The real problem is why was Ambassador Spock's ship so slow?

They had to wait for the council to decide whether to give them the red matter and to get the jellyfish ready

 

[knightgrace]

Hmmm.

Probably.

To expand what I said earlier.

My understanding was that the jellyfish had a top warp factor of eight - this in an Era of warp factor nine plus.

Just doesn't make sense.

I am not sure about the warp capability of LA Serina. I think warp factor nine standard an warp factor 9.2, maximum. Not taking into account that she was transwarp capable. Meaning twenty times faster than this. But this is speculation on my part.

 

[evilchumlee]

The loss of the Tal Shiar fleet was probably a pretty serious blow. We also know that the Romulans tend to have civil wars on occasion.

One thing going into total conjecture-land that's i've always thought was just that the Romulans are stretched super thin. I think they have a fairly huge empire, but they're supremacist enough they don't bring conquered people into the military. The Romulans have a large fleet... that is strained by trying to control a largely annexed empire, and they're trying to do it themselves.

 

[Dukhat]

I mean, these fuckers blew up their own sun and half their population to execute their broader plans. I'm sure they're rebuilding and doing their thing.

The Romulans did not blow up their own sun. The Zhat Vash reprogrammed the androids at Utopia Planitia to destroy the Federation evacuation fleet that would have saved most of the Romulan people, all because they didn't like androids. One of the many, many stupid things about Star Trek: Picard.

 

[Arpy]

The Romulans did not blow up their own sun. The Zhat Vash reprogrammed the androids at Utopia Planitia to destroy the Federation evacuation fleet that would have saved most of the Romulan people, all because they didn't like androids. One of the many, many stupid things about Star Trek: Picard.

As has been stated above, we don’t know who, if anyone, blew up the Romulan sun. But there’s a story there if someone wants to tell it, and the Romulans love killing themselves for “reasons,” sooo…

 

[FredH]

The Romulans did not blow up their own sun. The Zhat Vash reprogrammed the androids at Utopia Planitia to destroy the Federation evacuation fleet that would have saved most of the Romulan people, all because they didn't like androids. One of the many, many stupid things about Star Trek: Picard.

Or rather, about Zhat Vash ideology.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

all because they didn't like androids. One of the many, many stupid things about Star Trek: Picard.

They didn't like "Real AI".

One that can mass replicate itself and replace all Organic Life in the Galaxy/Universe.

Data as a individual wasn't much of an issue, there was no way to easily replicate him.

The A500 Androids that were infiltrated & Co-Opted to cause the "Attack on Mars" were no where close to "Data Level" of AI, they were basically only a few steps up from modern AI.

A glorified Chat Bot with a few extra layers, nothing close to what "Data" was capable of.

The Synths were the real deal since it was a improved form of AI that was derived off of Data's AI along with given a Bioroid like body that was VERY HARD to distinguish from the organic life it was mimic-ing, and the Zhat Vash were VERY afraid of them since they didn't know where they came from and how much of a threat they could be.

Granted the Zhat Vash were paranoid as heck, but given the visions that their people took when on that special planet, I'm not surprised that they were very afraid.

The concept of another Dimension full of Artificial Life that could be summoned to wipe out all Organic Life to rescue artificial Life is terrifying when you think about it.

And look at the kind of Mecha Cthulu Horrors that were reaching out through the portal.

That is legit scary stuff.

 

[The Wormhole]

Somebody blew it up.

Actually, we don't even know that. The idea that the Romulan supernova wasn't natural was something the Picard tie-in novels came up with, which was never reflected on the show at all.

 

[1001001]

The concept of another Dimension full of Artificial Life that could be summoned to wipe out all Organic Life to rescue artificial Life is terrifying when you think about it.

Until it appears as the Robot Spaghetti Monster.

I laughed out loud. I don’t think that was what they were going for…