The last episode

[HotRod]

Coming at this a little late, but what the hell.

But compared to relentlessly negative reception TATV got, “Demons”/”Terra Prime” might have compelled TPTB to take a chance and make an ENT tv movie, seeing as no one hated those episodes, or saw those episodes as an albatross on the series.

as has been pointed out, Enterprise was pretty much doomed before season 4 even started filming. A change in leadership at a UPN pretty much sealed the shows fate.

ENT already had enough stock footage accumulated to create a passable Earth-Romulan War movie. They could have added the DY-100 model from the TOS-R to the Earth/Coalition fleet. They could have reused the Valdore-type, and the Scimitar models from NEM, and maybe reskin some Vulcan, Klingon Xindi and Wisp ships seen in ENT to flesh out the Romulan fleet.

Yeah, this just sounds cheap and bad. While the general public certainly doesn't give a damn about the Romulan War, Trekkies would be up in arms about how decades of anticipation resulted in nothing more than a ultra cheap effort. For God sakes, people still bitch about the copy/paste fleet in Picard.

They never needed to rebuild the ENT sets that were torn down. Archer never even needed to be on Enterprise or any other ship during the movie (that could have been Reed in the captain’s chair with a green screen behind him when he’s communicating with Archer). Archer being on Earth or Babel or Andoria or Vulcan while building the Federation behind the scenes with Hoshi & Porthos by his side and Reed, Mayweather & Phlox popping in to give updates from the front line would have sufficed. Trip and T’Pol being on assignment on Romulus together would have sufficed. Enterprise only being seen at warp, or cloaking, or in battle, or in orbit of other worlds would have sufficed.

Again, this sounds worse than even the cheapest fan films. I'm a massive Enterprise fan and I'd take TATV over this every day of the week, and twice on Sundays.

And it would have completed ENT's story better.

It would have been the final nail in the coffin. While I have little hope of there ever being any kind of Enterprise continuation, I'll take the poor ending that we got over an ultra cheap fan wank.

Reusing stock footage did not hurt DS9’s storytelling of the Dominion War.

It certainly stood out at the time. I remember the anticipation that had built up over "the final battle of the Dominion War." And I remember how much of a let down that was at the time.

The Connie seen in ENT (IMAD and TATV) literally comes from TOS-R.

Totally different model.

They did reuse a bunch of studio models from VOY for ENT. So it’s not that far of a stretch that something like this would have been done.

Not to the extent you're talking.

 

[Dukhat]

It certainly stood out at the time. I remember the anticipation that had built up over "the final battle of the Dominion War." And I remember how much of a let down that was at the time.

DS9 is my favorite Trek series. I remember being extremely disappointed with the reuse of stock footage for the final battle (and the realization of why they immediately brought back a new Defiant of the same class right after the dramatic tension of losing the original) marring an otherwise great ending for the show. I'm sorry, but the visuals matter just as much as the story. Like I felt every time Berman Trek reused stock footage or studio models that should not have been used for a particular alien race (how many times did that triangle ship or the Talarian warship get used for other ships?), I just felt that it made Star Trek look cheap. And don't even get me started on the exploding BoP from TUC/GEN. Now, with the realization after-the-fact of the crazy realities of television production at that time, I get the need to cost-cut and adopt the 'make due with what you have' mentality. But this was DS9's series finale. As I said in another thread, it deserved better.

Which is why, getting back to the topic of the thread, reusing stock footage or repurposed old models to create a bargain-basement Romulan war is not remotely a good idea.

 

[FederationHistorian]

ENT was cancelled in 2005. TOS-R was produced between 2006-2008. So please explain how the Defiant in IAMD and the Enterprise-nil from TATV came from TOS-R.

Totally different model.

Whatever.

It was still proof of concept that TOS-R would look good on the small screen and they could proceed with the upgrade to HD.

It's not as if the Romulans and Vulcans split 50 years ago. More like 1700 years ago. Over such a timespan of isolation, you'd expect those cultures to have diverged widely.

Except for haircutting.

And if they are sharing the same hair styles, why not share other aspects like ship designs?

as has been pointed out, Enterprise was pretty much doomed before season 4 even started filming. A change in leadership at a UPN pretty much sealed the shows fate.

I did not say a big chance. I just said a chance.

Yeah, this just sounds cheap and bad. While the general public certainly doesn't give a damn about the Romulan War, Trekkies would be up in arms about how decades of anticipation resulted in nothing more than a ultra cheap effort. For God sakes, people still bitch about the copy/paste fleet in Picard.

Again, this sounds worse than even the cheapest fan films. I'm a massive Enterprise fan and I'd take TATV over this every day of the week, and twice on Sundays.

It would have been the final nail in the coffin. While I have little hope of there ever being any kind of Enterprise continuation, I'll take the poor ending that we got over an ultra cheap fan wank.

Not to the extent you're talking.

When TPTB at the time did not even like Star Trek or science fiction of any kind. And even that aside, the numbers ENT got did not reflect continued support in the eyes of TPTB. Why do you think that they would put in anymore effort than what I described i.e. copy-and-paste fleet? It's probably be even less than that. They sure weren't making any new starship models for a 2 hour tv movie. I doubt they'd want to rebuild the NX sets they tore down. Even in the production of PIC S3, it was like pulling teeth just to get Paramount to re-build the Ent-D bridge

Maybe if the 2013 Netflix campaign to bring back ENT had taken off, I could see actually effort undertaken there to retcon TATV and produce the Romulan War of the fandom's dreams. And being on streaming, they'd be less restricted in storytelling.

It certainly stood out at the time. I remember the anticipation that had built up over "the final battle of the Dominion War." And I remember how much of a let down that was at the time.

It would stand out, though one would hope they'd learn from their mistake in GEN and flip some shots.

Which is why, getting back to the topic of the thread, reusing stock footage or repurposed old models to create a bargain-basement Romulan war is not remotely a good idea.

It's actually about the last episode of ENT, not a hypothetical Romulan War tv movie that was never made. Though it is completely valid to ask if the last episode of Enterprise should have featured the Romulan War in some capacity. Since that conflict is why the Federation was formed in the first place.

For now, we need to wait an see if the upcoming Lower Decks has anything to say on the matter. They might retcon TATV or they may not. We'll see.

Though it is worth asking, since it;s related to TATV - is there anything from the "Hologram All The Way Down" Very Short Trek that improved upon TATV?

On one hand, we actually see the NX-01, under attack by a D7. And we saw a D7 in the ENT episode "Unexpected", so it's plausible adventure within continuity, and it's plausible that it's even the same ship. While we see Trip hit with an explosion, we don't actually see him die or even end up in sickbay.

OTOH, while they crew were not wearing the TATV uniforms or were on the TATV bridge. the crew that we do see (Trip, Reed, Mayweather) are all still the same rank. In fact, T'Pol went back to her S3 uniform; she was lacking the pips and uniform patch from S4.

Would it be plausible for T'Pol to renounce her Starfleet commission after the events of S4? For that matter, would it be plausible for T'Pol to temporarily renounce her Starfleet membership between the events of Terra Prime and the Federation's founding?

 

[Dukhat]

Whatever.

Well at least you know how to graciously admit when you're wrong.

It was still proof of concept that TOS-R would look good on the small screen and they could proceed with the upgrade to HD.

Most of TOS-R looked like crap, because it was done on the cheap.

And if they are sharing the same hair styles, why not share other aspects like ship designs?

Because one has nothing whatsoever to do with the other?

When TPTB at the time did not even like Star Trek or science fiction of any kind.

That is a fallacy. Les Moonves and Co. neither loved nor hated Trek or sci-fi. What they most definitely did love were shows that were cheap to produce and got stellar ratings. A show like ENT was neither of those things. But if the ratings had been though the roof, they would have loved Trek and sci-fi just fine.

Maybe if the 2013 Netflix campaign to bring back ENT had taken off, I could see actually effort undertaken there to retcon TATV and produce the Romulan War of the fandom's dreams. And being on streaming, they'd be less restricted in storytelling.

That was just a pipe dream that had zero chance of bringing ENT back in any form.

For now, we need to wait an see if the upcoming Lower Decks has anything to say on the matter. They might retcon TATV or they may not. We'll see.

I'm not sure why Lower Decks would do something like that.

Though it is worth asking, since it;s related to TATV - is there anything from the "Hologram All The Way Down" Very Short Trek that improved upon TATV?

None of the VSTs improved upon anything.

On one hand, we actually see the NX-01, under attack by a D7. And we saw a D7 in the ENT episode "Unexpected", so it's plausible adventure within continuity, and it's plausible that it's even the same ship. While we see Trip hit with an explosion, we don't actually see him die or even end up in sickbay.

OTOH, while they crew were not wearing the TATV uniforms or were on the TATV bridge. the crew that we do see (Trip, Reed, Mayweather) are all still the same rank. In fact, T'Pol went back to her S3 uniform; she was lacking the pips and uniform patch from S4.

Would it be plausible for T'Pol to renounce her Starfleet commission after the events of S4? For that matter, would it be plausible for T'Pol to temporarily renounce her Starfleet membership between the events of Terra Prime and the Federation's founding?

You do know that the VSTs are not canon?

 

[HotRod]

You do know that the VSTs are not canon?

And thank Christ for that.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

You are entitled to your opinions and I am entitled to mine. Let's leave it at that.

On this, I am in complete agreement.

@FederationHistorian... @Dukhat...do you remember when you posted the above statements of infinite wisdom and beauty?

I suspect you may have forgotten, because you two are back doing what you always do - derailing the thread with your stubborn efforts to beat each other's dead horses to death.

What happened to the halcyon days of insulting TATV? What else good is a TATV hate thread, anyway?

I have told you many times - hell, you told each other (see proof above) - to AGREE TO DISAGREE and not endlessly spam up the thread with all the "yeah but" retorts.

You don't see eye to eye. I get it. We all get it. Now let it go. Before I break out the spam warnings. Okay? Thanks.

 

[FederationHistorian]

What happened to the halcyon days of insulting TATV? What else good is a TATV hate thread, anyway?

It's still here.

It's why I would like to ask about "Holograms All The Way Down". Even though I am no fan of Very Short Treks as a series, that particular episode was very good. And was more coherent in those 5 minutes than the 45 minutes TATV had.

Although it's interesting to consider that TATV is really Quark's holosuite program, it still poses interesting questions regarding what actually happened with the NX-01 crew after the Terra Prime crisis was resolved.

The attack on the NX-01 is a throwback to "Unexpected". Is that supposed to mean anything, since Trip was carrying a child then? And T'Pol and Trip were supposed to be planning to have a child of their own at the end of "Terra Prime"?

T'Pol went back to her S3 uniform; she was lacking the pips and mission patch from S4. If she resigned her Starfleet commission after the events of S4, why? Was she accepted back into the High Command? Is it a sign that she'd support the crew in another war effort, even if it clashes with Surak's teachings regarding non-violence? So, basically, is T'Pol ignoring the Vulcan Reformation to support her crew and her personal reexamination of her beliefs in the aftermath of the Kir'Shara discovery?

Neither Trip, Reed, or Mayweather ever get promoted or change division, like in TATV. And, like T'Pol, were lacking the mission patch. However, since Trip did at one point transfer to Columbia is is possible that Reed and Mayweather may have briefly transferred to another ship? Did T'Pol temporarily transfer off Enterprise as well?

Since we never see her, is there a chance Hoshi actually got promoted - even briefly - while serving under Archer?

Since Trip is only seen flying when he's hit with the explosion and not dying in sickbay, is this confirmation that he's alive? I mean, how many times the crew have to deal with exploding consoles on the bridge and not one of them died?

For that matter, is it confirmation that Riker and Troi never believed he died either?

Although it poses a lot of question, at least it shows potential for continuing Enterprise's story, whereas TATV just ended it.

 

[HotRod]

It's still here.

It's why I would like to ask about "Holograms All The Way Down". Even though I am no fan of Very Short Treks as a series, that particular episode was very good. And was more coherent in those 5 minutes than the 45 minutes TATV had.

Although it's interesting to consider that TATV is really Quark's holosuite program, it still poses interesting questions regarding what actually happened with the NX-01 crew after the Terra Prime crisis was resolved.

The attack on the NX-01 is a throwback to "Unexpected". Is that supposed to mean anything, since Trip was carrying a child then? And T'Pol and Trip were supposed to be planning to have a child of their own at the end of "Terra Prime"?

T'Pol went back to her S3 uniform; she was lacking the pips and mission patch from S4. If she resigned her Starfleet commission after the events of S4, why? Was she accepted back into the High Command? Is it a sign that she'd support the crew in another war effort, even if it clashes with Surak's teachings regarding non-violence? So, basically, is T'Pol ignoring the Vulcan Reformation to support her crew and her personal reexamination of her beliefs in the aftermath of the Kir'Shara discovery?

Neither Trip, Reed, or Mayweather ever get promoted or change division, like in TATV. And, like T'Pol, were lacking the mission patch. However, since Trip did at one point transfer to Columbia is is possible that Reed and Mayweather may have briefly transferred to another ship? Did T'Pol temporarily transfer off Enterprise as well?

Since we never see her, is there a chance Hoshi actually got promoted - even briefly - while serving under Archer?

Since Trip is only seen flying when he's hit with the explosion and not dying in sickbay, is this confirmation that he's alive? I mean, how many times the crew have to deal with exploding consoles on the bridge and not one of them died?

For that matter, is it confirmation that Riker and Troi never believed he died either?

Although it poses a lot of question, at least it shows potential for continuing Enterprise's story, whereas TATV just ended it.

I think it was a non-canon bit of fluff that we in no way were supposed to take seriously. Analyzing any of the "Very Short Treks" is a waste of time and brainpower that could be better used doing just about anything else.

 

[Uhura's Song]

As someone who loves TNG, "These are the Voyages..." is trash. Like the OP said, this would've been fine as a mid-series episode but for a series finale? This ain't it.

I will admit. I don't particularly consider myself an ENT fan (but I don't hate it, either) but that "finale" has me sympathizing with the fans and the cast because I feel like they did the ENT characters dirty, largely with the whole thing being Riker's holodeck simulation.

On top of all this, wasn't this supposed to be not only the series finale of Enterprise but also the last episode for this particular era of the Star Trek franchise? Isn't that what that monologue at the end voiced by Kirk, Picard, and Archer was about?

I'll give it this though: the only thing I actually did like about "These Are the Voyages..." was that scene where Tucker tells the alien intruders, "You all can go straight to hell," before connecting the plasma conduits together, blowing them away and knocking them out! That gets me every time!

Aside from that I feel for the cast of ENT because pretty much every other Star Trek series got a proper send-off and especially with it being the end of that era, they deserved a different ending than what they got.

What a colossal let-down.

Amen.

I consider the ENT finale to be one of the 3 biggest failures of Trek.

1) TOS cast going out after "Turnabout Intruder."

Fixed with the films and the wonderful finale in "The Undiscovered Country."

2) TNG cast going out after "Nemesis."

Fixed with the wonderful ending in S3 of Picard.

3) TATV as finale of Enterprise.

I keep hoping SNW will fix it (Phlox or T'Pol could still be around). Or LD could do a time travel show and do it animated.

 

[Dukhat]

Amen.

I consider the ENT finale to be one of the 3 biggest failures of Trek.

1) TOS cast going out after "Turnabout Intruder."

Fixed with the films and the wonderful finale in "The Undiscovered Country."

2) TNG cast going out after "Nemesis."

Fixed with the wonderful ending in S3 of Picard.

3) TATV as finale of Enterprise.

I keep hoping SNW will fix it (Phlox or T'Pol could still be around). Or LD could do a time travel show and do it animated.

Unfortunately, ENT wasn't anywhere near as popular as TOS and TNG. So don't expect that TATV will be retconned or fixed any time soon, especially with LDS as it only has one more season and there's no indication that they did anything like that.

Jolene Blalock has retired from acting. So it's doubtful that she would ever feel the need to reprise a role from a show that she didn't particularly like.

 

[at Quark's]

To be honest, I don't think most Trek (series) endings are very good.

TOS - no ending at all, series was just cancelled.
TNG - the only really good ending. Series came full circle with another Q trial (although in reality, it could be the same trial that 'never ended' as Q says), and a final sequence that shows the crew goes on, even if in the future their paths may diverge.
DS9 - Not really bad, but underwhelming. Re-used footage. The Final Confrontation you'd know would come. Quite predictable. Too self-indulgent and navelgazing with all those teary Goodbye Scenes and flashbacks. The story we actually see easily could have fit within a single episode.
VOY - Entertaining enough, but once you start to think about it - basically Admiral Janeway changing the timeline based on selfish desires or being on a guilt trip ("I'm willing to gamble everything in this timeline to save Seven, Tuvok and Chakotay, but I don't care about time traveling just 4 weeks further back to save Carey, too, or about all the other races and people we helped in the original timeline after this point!")
ENT- as discussed above.

 

[FederationHistorian]

3) TATV as finale of Enterprise.

I keep hoping SNW will fix it (Phlox or T'Pol could still be around). Or LD could do a time travel show and do it animated.

Well, LD dismisses the events of “Bound”. And I find that important, since “Bound“ is the episode that Trip and T’Pol officially get (back) together.

Ignore it like the writers of TATV did, and the sequence of events that follows in relations to Trip and T’Pol’s relationship in the final three episodes of ENT make more sense and a bit more plausible.

Of course it leave a window open that TATV was a series of events that occurred over the course of 2160 & 2161 instead of a span of three days, but that’s neither here nor there.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well, LD dismisses the events of “Bound”. And I find that important, since “Bound“ is the episode that Trip and T’Pol officially get (back) together.

It don't work that way.

 

[Dukhat]

It don't work that way.

Yeah, I was wondering about that myself. How was ‘Bound’ retconned?

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

I have just ended the series, and I liked it, but for the love of the Bajoran gods, what the hell were they thinking with this last episode? The idea of making it all an holosuite play by Riker is fine... for any other episode. The last one should be the most important, the final climax that closes everything. Instead, the focus is transferred to someone from another series. The story (even if in holosuite form) should be about the creation of the Federation, but that's just an afterthought in a story about some kidnappers. And the final insult, Archer is about to give a grand speech, but Riker and Troi had enough and close the simulation.

The show was cancelled while they were filming the Mirror Universe two-parter, and the Terra Prime two-parter was likely already into production, so they only had one 45-minute episode to end the show. I think the story goes that the season finale was already planned to be a TNG-crossover. However, it likely would have been in the S4 timeframe and not 6 years later, and Trip likely would have survived.

I buy the stories that the season finale was simply "reworked" into a series finale last minute. It makes sense, because some aspects of the episode seemed planned ahead, while other aspects felt rushed and tacked on. It's 6 years later, but nothing "feels" 6 years later. Trip dies - randomly. The "add ons" to the ship and uniforms just feel last-second. There seems to be more focus on the TNG crossover than ending the show. It just feels like a WTF bizarro world season finale, not a series finale, but with a "oh shit, we're cancelled, quick, retool it into a series finale!"

Honestly, if it had been a 2-hour and had more planning, it probably would have been fine. As it is, I think the idea is to think of "Terra Prime" as the Enterprise finale and "These Are the Voyages..." as the 1987-2005 finale, a crossover with TNG to bring it full circle.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

To be honest, I don't think most Trek (series) endings are very good.

TOS - no ending at all, series was just cancelled.
TNG - the only really good ending. Series came full circle with another Q trial (although in reality, it could be the same trial that 'never ended' as Q says), and a final sequence that shows the crew goes on, even if in the future their paths may diverge.
DS9 - Not really bad, but underwhelming. Re-used footage. The Final Confrontation you'd know would come. Quite predictable. Too self-indulgent and navelgazing with all those teary Goodbye Scenes and flashbacks. The story we actually see easily could have fit within a single episode.
VOY - Entertaining enough, but once you start to think about it - basically Admiral Janeway changing the timeline based on selfish desires or being on a guilt trip ("I'm willing to gamble everything in this timeline to save Seven, Tuvok and Chakotay, but I don't care about time traveling just 4 weeks further back to save Carey, too, or about all the other races and people we helped in the original timeline after this point!")
ENT- as discussed above.

I would slightly modify your post here.
TOS - regular episode as was common in the 60's.
TNG - open-ended finale, to be followed by a movie later that same year.
DS9 - ending with a 10-episode arc advertised as "The Final Chapter." The 2-hour finale represented the last 2 hours of the 10-episode arc. The idea was to end the show conclusively.
VOY - the premise of the show made ending it very easy, just send them home. Guess what the finale was about? LOL
ENT - We can just call it "that weird TNG crossover thing."

Now this has me thinking. Picard went out with a bang as did Prodigy if it ends with S2 and doesn't get renewed. Lower Decks is supposed to go out with a bang too. Did Discovery have a decent ending?

 

[suarezguy]

Also random thought, what if it were someone else? I doubt it'd have changed the backlash... but Troi does feel like rent a guest star by this point and Riker's motivation was lacking.

Even most TNG fans were burned out by Riker by then but he does make sense as being second lead/pretty often focused on second in command of most popular show while also being more of everyman, Picard or Data would be so distinct they would be a little more attention-taking-away. Although Data might actually make more sense, both in that it had to be from TNG era as he was dead in "present" (although the age difference would probably be really notable) and Spiner had already appeared on the show with cast as creator ancestor so already some slight connection, both real universe and in-universe, between the series.

No Archer speech bad.

Would feel weird, maybe cheap but also actually creative, if the finale had just been the events of "Demons"/"Terra Prime" being (re-)experienced and considered by Riker and Troi, then that they would really still be finale while also getting extension of it/other finale.

It as not a fitting finale for the ENT cast. And it was not good that TNG was dragged into this mess either, considering the NEM debacle was a couple of years prior. It was a disservice to both shows and both casts. Horrible sendoff for both.

It does feel kind of appropriate for last appearance of Riker and Troi to be soon before, even could be considered to be leading in to, their previous finale "AGT".

 

[Dukhat]

There's really no good reason for Riker and Troi to have been in that finale. None whatsoever.

 

[Ceridwen]

At least the Enterprise portions of the episode can be interpreted as not really happening the way they did on the holodeck. That doesn't make it a more satisfying viewing experience, mind you, but it makes the events as presented slightly more palatable. I don't have to believe that Trip died that way if I don't want to, it's just a video game, Spock was always going on about how their records of Earth history are particularly sketchy around the big wars anyway.

What's really insulting is to have the finale be an episode of The Next Generation and then ruin that episode of The Next Generation too. "The Pegasus" comes on PlutoTV every so often, and my housemate just sits and laughs, bitterly, about how Riker is "playing laser tag" off screen the whole time. Just a really nonsensical creative decision. I get what they thought they were going for, saying goodbye to "their" Trek, but they really failed at even that.

 

[Dukhat]

I've mentioned this before, but honestly, as much as I hate that finale, there has been zero clear evidence from TPTB that it occurred any differently from what we saw on screen, holodeck program or not. Riker and Troi act as if the program is 100% accurate, including the circumstances of Trip's death.

Spoiler: about a streaming Trek show

LDS had the opportunity of getting Jolene Blalock back, and could have created a story with her that could have invalidated TATV if they wanted to. They chose not to do that. The best we're ever going to get with this is that in some other alternate universe, Trip survived and married T'Pol.