The Klingon Imperial Empire
- Thread starter Amaraen
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Could have been an overly literal translation from Klingon, for all we know Klingons could LOVE tautology as a way of really putting their point across!
IMHO a name with the form - ethnic designation - adjective - type of realm - seems fairly normal.
I always believed that some Klingon die hards refused to accept the Khitomer accords and went off and founded one or more other Klingon realms. And other realms might have split off from the original Klingon realm at other periods.
Thus there might have been enough Klingon realms that many had three part names like the Imperial Klingon Republic, the Royal Klingon Kingdom, the Klingon Imperial Empire, the Klingon Republican Empire, and so on.
A lot of words are translated into English very roughly and loosely as "empire", "emperor", or "imperial" even though that is not their literal meaning. It is certainly possible that in the English phrase "Klingon Imperial Empire" "Imperial" and "Empire" are translations of Klingon words that are unconnected in meaning.
The ancient Greek word basileus originally meant "king" but during the Roman Empire was often used for the emperor and thus came to mean "emperor". The Greek word autokrator or "self ruler" was used to translate the Latin world Imperator.
The title of the Roman emperors was more like the phrase Imperator Caesar Augustus than any single word, but in English the word "emperor is considered the translation of the single word Imperator and so autokrator is considered the (other) Greek word for "emperor". Of course some people would translate Imperator Caesar Augustus as "Emperor Emperor Emperor"!
After about 700 the emperors of the eastern part of the Roman empire used the title of Basileus Kai Autokrator, "Emperor and Emperor". After about 900 AD it was changed to Basileus Kai Autokrator ton Rhomaion, "King and Emperor of the Romans" or "Emperor and Emperor of the Romans".
The title of someone elected ruler of the Holy Roman Empire was not Holy Roman Emperor. Instead it was usually Romanorum Rex et Semper Augustus, "King of the Romans and always Emperor" between election and coronation and Romanorum Imperator et Semper Augustus, "Emperor of the Romans and always Emperor" after coronation.
The German word reich is sometimes translated into English as "empire" even though it comes closer to meaning "realm". Thus a konigreich is a "king realm" or "kingdom" and a kaiserreich is a "caesar realm" or empire. People who translate reich as "empire" would have to translate kaiserreich as "emperor empire" or "imperial empire".
I always believed that some Klingon die hards refused to accept the Khitomer accords and went off and founded one or more other Klingon realms. And other realms might have split off from the original Klingon realm at other periods.
Thus there might have been enough Klingon realms that many had three part names like the Imperial Klingon Republic, the Royal Klingon Kingdom, the Klingon Imperial Empire, the Klingon Republican Empire, and so on.
A lot of words are translated into English very roughly and loosely as "empire", "emperor", or "imperial" even though that is not their literal meaning. It is certainly possible that in the English phrase "Klingon Imperial Empire" "Imperial" and "Empire" are translations of Klingon words that are unconnected in meaning.
The ancient Greek word basileus originally meant "king" but during the Roman Empire was often used for the emperor and thus came to mean "emperor". The Greek word autokrator or "self ruler" was used to translate the Latin world Imperator.
The title of the Roman emperors was more like the phrase Imperator Caesar Augustus than any single word, but in English the word "emperor is considered the translation of the single word Imperator and so autokrator is considered the (other) Greek word for "emperor". Of course some people would translate Imperator Caesar Augustus as "Emperor Emperor Emperor"!
After about 700 the emperors of the eastern part of the Roman empire used the title of Basileus Kai Autokrator, "Emperor and Emperor". After about 900 AD it was changed to Basileus Kai Autokrator ton Rhomaion, "King and Emperor of the Romans" or "Emperor and Emperor of the Romans".
The title of someone elected ruler of the Holy Roman Empire was not Holy Roman Emperor. Instead it was usually Romanorum Rex et Semper Augustus, "King of the Romans and always Emperor" between election and coronation and Romanorum Imperator et Semper Augustus, "Emperor of the Romans and always Emperor" after coronation.
The German word reich is sometimes translated into English as "empire" even though it comes closer to meaning "realm". Thus a konigreich is a "king realm" or "kingdom" and a kaiserreich is a "caesar realm" or empire. People who translate reich as "empire" would have to translate kaiserreich as "emperor empire" or "imperial empire".
Or the writers just overlooked a very minor bit of dodgy dialogue.
I think what Ronald D. Moore may have had in mind here by adding the seemingly redundant word "Imperial" to Klingon Empire was a nod to what the Japanese called their empire: Dai Nippon Teikoku, literally Greater Japanese Empire.
There was an infamous Japanese WWII film released in 1982 with that exact title (Dai Nippon Teikoku) which was a defense of Japanese Imperialism. The U.S. title was translated as The Imperial Japanese Empire. It's just a guess on my part, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility that Moore thought of this film (or the translation) while writing the teleplay for "Sins of the Father."
That specific translation of Dai Nippon Teikoku also appears in the subtitle of the book Downfall: The End of the Imperial Japanese Empire by Richard Frank.
This is along my thoughts as well. Perhaps the literal translation of the Klingon Empire's formal name comes out to "imperial empire". Saying so in English is redundant, but once through the translator it's the proper formal name.
Maybe it shouldn't come as a complete surprise that the phrase came out of the mouth of Jean-Luc Picard. Picard is, after all, a Frenchman.
Can't expect his English to always be prim and proper. If it was Captain Patrick Stewart who uttered the phrase, that would be wince evoking.
By the way, the Klingon Empire used the acronym "IKS" as a prefix to the name of their starships, not "KIS".
Since there are several posting past the necro-bump ...
Set course for the First City of the Klingon Imperial Empire.
I find it odd that Picard would order a course set towards a city. Perhaps the planet where the Klingon capital is, is called (among other things) the "first city?" In the Klingon language city being synonymous with planet? So "first planet."
The Klingons are a fractured people, the state is divided between large family houses, alway on the edge of civil war.
So the Klingon Empire might have a internal subdivision that is known as the Imperial (section) of the Empire. With other sections of the Empire having their own identifiers, and their own "first cities."
Set course for the First City of the Klingon Imperial Empire.
I find it odd that Picard would order a course set towards a city. Perhaps the planet where the Klingon capital is, is called (among other things) the "first city?" In the Klingon language city being synonymous with planet? So "first planet."
The Klingons are a fractured people, the state is divided between large family houses, alway on the edge of civil war.
So the Klingon Empire might have a internal subdivision that is known as the Imperial (section) of the Empire. With other sections of the Empire having their own identifiers, and their own "first cities."
No, the different noble houses seen in episodes are all part of the Klingon Imperial Empire. But it is certainly possible for there to be more than one independent Klingon realm at a time due to Klingon revolts and civil wars. Members of Chang's faction may have revolted and founded their own independent Klingon realms after Star Trek VI: the Undiscovered Country for example.
After the 4th crusade and foundation of the Latin Empire in 1204 various "Byzantine" groups founded three large and several small "Byzantine" realms in the provinces, for example.
Members of the Boer or Afrikaner ethnic groups founded 17 different republics in South Africa between 1795 and 1902. There were four of them at a time from 1839-1843, four different ones 1856-1858, five in 1882-1883, etc.,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boer_Republics
So the Klingon Imperial Empire might not be the only Klingon Empire. Also "imperial" and "Empire" might be translations of Klingon words that are not connected to each other as much as "imperial" and "Empire" are in English.
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I still think Picard goofed, guys.
But, yes, there could be secessionist movements. We see in the "The Mind's Eye" episode the Klingon ambassador make reference to Kriosian independence. That it might be granted only for it to be later reconquered if it fancies them. He said it in such a matter-of-fact way that it seems that this happens now and again and it stands to reason it would.
Calling a secessionist state the Imperial Klingon State or whatever name that distinguishes it from the Qo'noS regime is probably unlikely though. It would be a direct slap in the face of the Qo'noS government that could not be allowed to stand. It would be an open civil war situation. An empire who's seat wasn't on Qo'noS would face severe legitimacy problems. They'd have to make a Klingon holy planet a seat of their little secessionist state to stand a chance and even on those terms...
It would be unlikely that such a state would be recognised in interstellar terms anyway. The mainstay Klingon Empire would not obligingly adjust its formal name to accommodate any rival wannabe Klingon Empire. If secessionists are tolerated for a time, they'd probably take their name of the sector where the seat of power is located. A little bit like Taiwan today.
But, yes, there could be secessionist movements. We see in the "The Mind's Eye" episode the Klingon ambassador make reference to Kriosian independence. That it might be granted only for it to be later reconquered if it fancies them. He said it in such a matter-of-fact way that it seems that this happens now and again and it stands to reason it would.
Calling a secessionist state the Imperial Klingon State or whatever name that distinguishes it from the Qo'noS regime is probably unlikely though. It would be a direct slap in the face of the Qo'noS government that could not be allowed to stand. It would be an open civil war situation. An empire who's seat wasn't on Qo'noS would face severe legitimacy problems. They'd have to make a Klingon holy planet a seat of their little secessionist state to stand a chance and even on those terms...
It would be unlikely that such a state would be recognised in interstellar terms anyway. The mainstay Klingon Empire would not obligingly adjust its formal name to accommodate any rival wannabe Klingon Empire. If secessionists are tolerated for a time, they'd probably take their name of the sector where the seat of power is located. A little bit like Taiwan today.
Why have both United and Kingdom?
I dunno. By comparison, the United American Union sounds awful dodgy. So does the Federal Russian Federation, or the Republican French Republic, or the Principal Andorran Principality, or the Stately Israeli State, or the National Argentine Nation, or the Duchal Luxembourgish Duchy.
In the novels, the Klingons' espionage agency is known as Klingon Imperial Intelligence.
No I wince when they're thrown around the bridge and not wearing seatbelts.
Perfect place for a plug.
Read "The Final Reflection" by John M. Ford. This is the definitive depiction of the Klingon race.
Then forget everything you saw before or after.
Read "The Final Reflection" by John M. Ford. This is the definitive depiction of the Klingon race.
Then forget everything you saw before or after.
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