the Federation brought the Dominion War on itself

[indolover]

The Dominion War should never have happened, even if the Federation eventually won it.

- Instead of sending the Odyssey to get destroyed, Starfleet should have signed a non-aggression pact with the Dominion, or a least a treaty with the Founders saying the Federation would not explore the Gamma Quadrant.

- if the Federation can appease the Romulans by signing the Treaty of Algeron in good faith, what difference would a treaty with the Founders have made? Doesn't the Federation believe in peaceful co-existence with all species? The Federation always makes concessions, and the Treaty of Algeron gives the Federation a tactical disadvantage. A treaty with the Founders is no different.

- If the Founders had not signed it in good faith, then the Treaty of Bajor cannot be bonafide either, can it? The only thing stopping the Dominion from ever sending ships to the Alpha Quadrant (apart from the Treaty) are the Prophets, since Sisko can always tell them to destroy the ships. Sisko obviously wouldn't want anything to happen to the Federation, since he is a Starfleet officer and a Federation citizen.

What if one day, the Founders developed transwarp technology, and didn't need the wormhole to travel to the Alpha Quadrant? What if also the Founders wanted revenge against the Federation, and sent thousands of ships with transwarp capability to the Federation? The Treaty then would only be a piece of paper, and not anything the Founders were sincere in upholding.

this is just a thought i had, sorry if it's long.

 

[Arpy]

Some thoughts:

...Starfleet should have signed a non-aggression pact with the Dominion, or a least a treaty with the Founders saying the Federation would not explore the Gamma Quadrant...

Why? It's an entire quarter of the galaxy of which the Dominion is but a small part. Might as well sign a treaty with North Korea to stay out of the eastern hemisphere.

And before anyone goes mentioning the Monroe Doctrine, let me say that it wouldn't work today - it's too easy to travel around the world...in that respect, similar to using the wormhole.

...if the Federation can appease the Romulans by signing the Treaty of Algeron in good faith, what difference would a treaty with the Founders have made...

The Treaty of Algeron merely give the Romulans a tactical advantage in peacetime. The balance isn't tipped too far, nor does the treaty hold if there's war, at which time Federation cloaks start getting replicated.

...The only thing stopping the Dominion from ever sending ships to the Alpha Quadrant (apart from the Treaty) are the Prophets...

And impenetrable walls of mines. I wonder if, like shields, they could be set to let certain things through...like ally ships to continue exploring the other side. Worst comes to worst and the Dominions finds a way through (i.e. more allies on this end) they set off a Doomsday Mine to collapse the wormhole.

...What if one day, the Founders developed transwarp technology, and didn't need the wormhole to travel to the Alpha Quadrant...

Then they'd come to our end of the galaxy to spread their "order" regardless of whether we appeased them or not.

The moment they learned about us we became a target. The Founders hate all solids everywhere. Even if we collapsed the wormhole, they'd know we're out here and that eventually we'll develop means of traveling to them without the wormhole (whether transwarp or something else) and so we remain a problem to be dominated by the Dominion.

 

[Teiwaz]

I suppose they could have signed a treaty with the founders, but the story didn't take us in that direction.

Almost as soon as the wormhole was discovered, everybody piled through to see what they could find.

either "Because they are showing a brisk pioneering spirit and seeking wealth and... additional wealth in a new land."
or "becuase they are a a bunch of unprincipled opportunists always ready to grab something for nothing."
(Lord Vetinari on the colonisation of Leshp by Ankh-Morpork and Klatch - 'Jingo' by Terry Pratchett

When the powers on the other side sent them a message there was panic, a search for the leadership (which ended in the dream treaty) and escalation.

I'd assume the first meetings with the Romulans didn't imediately begin with diplomatic negotiations.

 

[Londo]

I'd assume the first meetings with the Romulans didn't imediately begin with diplomatic negotiations.

Contact with the Romulans seems to be a pretty good parallel to the dominion. Initial encounters were hostile and a major war developed in a few years which was won by the Federation in a decisive battle at Cheron. The following treaty created the neutral zone.
The wormhole becomes essentially a very focused neutral zone. Romulan stealth and cloaking technology means the zone is not a real impediment to them but they dont cross it very often. Its much easier to keep a watch on that wormhole than the whole zone.
In the end all interstellar negotiations rely on power and faith.
What is unclear is what incentive the dominion have to try again, apart from petty revachism. There is clearly open space between them and the Alpha quadrant, why do they need to jump into a conflict via the wormhole.
They must have either expansion room or their own borders, either with other powers who they A) cant beat or more likely B) they hold faith with. If the Dominion has either open space to advance or they hold faith with other powers then the Alpha quadrant is gonna be OK after the treaty. If the Dominion is faced with opponents they cant beat then the AQ powers need to find a way to contact them.

 

[Cheapjack]

 

[mythme]

The first Jem'Hadar through the wormhole made it known that they had slaughtered an entire Bajoran colony. I dont think the Federations would make peaceful overtures to such people. They're not Neville Chamberlin.

 

[Garm Bel Iblis]

According to Robert Hewitt Wolfe the Dominion was aware of the Federation long before the wormhole was discovered and would be coming "one day" anyway.

 

[Cheapjack]

I tell you one thing, if Star Trek mirrors the times, and we are going to be in Afghanistan for a generation, there's going to be a hell of a lot of this war and others in ST for a long time.

I think they should do a spin-off series, with a research/science vessel, with reduced, or less obvious armament, maybe backed up by a few defiant type ships on call, boldly going.

That would satisfy the techno-geeks. I'm sure there must be two of us!!

 

[Solarbaby]

Actually I think Jadzia brought the war on the Federation. In "Jem 'Hadar" she boldly states " If the Dominions thinks Starfleet will stop exploring the Gamma Quadrant they are mistaken" or something along those lines-been a while since I watched it. Who made her UFP president and commander in chief of starfleet?

As much as what the Dominion did was wrong in killing the New Bajor colonists, it still never gave the Federation the right to travel inside foreign territory. Plus weren't the colonists bajoran? Why would Starfleet retaliate on behalf of a non federation member? Starfleet was only on DS9 to facilitate the station after the Cardies left( something I never understood- but that's another thread).

Imagine if the wormhole was inside federation space and these alien ships started travelling through and interfering. Starfleet would be very concerned. Especially as they have lots of laws and guidelines for transit in space. Such as Gambit when the Klingons are subject to health and safety inspections whenever necessary. I don't believe they'd have let them start poking their noses in the Alpha quadrant- and once they learned the nature of the Dominions manifesto- to impose order on chaos they certainly would have close their borders. Double standards then for Starfleet to push their way into the Dominion territory.

Starfleet did cause the war. The writers should have come up with another reason for the war starting which didn't leave the Federation with blood on its hands. But whatever the cause - it was a cracking good 5 more seasons of storytelling

 

[C.E. Evans]

To me, the Dominion War shows what happens when a first contact goes really badly. Both sides perceived the other as a threat but actually knew very little about one another. At least one or two billion lives were lost because the Dominion misjudged the Federation and the Federation gave up very quickly on a diplomatic solution, IMO[highlight]*[/highlight].

[highlight]*[/highlight]So much for yer perfect and enlightened Humans. Give 'em a bloody nose and they come out swingin' and wantin' to kick some ass just like anyone else would from an earlier time...

 

[USS KG5]

As much as what the Dominion did was wrong in killing the New Bajor colonists, it still never gave the Federation the right to travel inside foreign territory. Plus weren't the colonists bajoran? Why would Starfleet retaliate on behalf of a non federation member? Starfleet was only on DS9 to facilitate the station after the Cardies left( something I never understood- but that's another thread).

Well what makes you think they were in Dominion space? It seems likely they were not, also as a general rule it is considered polite to ask people to leave BEFORE killing them, to do the latter first is generally a bit antagonistic.

The Feds might be peace-loving but also probably are aware of the value of a good show of force. They were conditioned to think their best could take anyone, even the Borg, to lose a Galaxy class ship to a ramming attack changed the game.

LAter, heck, maybe they would have been wiser, but the Feds never took any outright aggressive moves, they were not pacifistic but the moves they did take were at least understandable.

 

[Solarbaby]

As much as what the Dominion did was wrong in killing the New Bajor colonists, it still never gave the Federation the right to travel inside foreign territory. Plus weren't the colonists bajoran? Why would Starfleet retaliate on behalf of a non federation member? Starfleet was only on DS9 to facilitate the station after the Cardies left( something I never understood- but that's another thread).

Well what makes you think they were in Dominion space? It seems likely they were not, also as a general rule it is considered polite to ask people to leave BEFORE killing them, to do the latter first is generally a bit antagonistic.

The Feds might be peace-loving but also probably are aware of the value of a good show of force. They were conditioned to think their best could take anyone, even the Borg, to lose a Galaxy class ship to a ramming attack changed the game.

LAter, heck, maybe they would have been wiser, but the Feds never took any outright aggressive moves, they were not pacifistic but the moves they did take were at least understandable.

Nothing leads to believe this.

There's no indication that the first few Gamma quadrant races that came to DS9 were aware of the Dominion so it could suggest the wormhole wasn't in Dominion space. There's no way of knowing for sure.

However the Dominion seem to be unstoppable in the Gamma quadrant. By default any system they choose to be part of the Dominion is theirs. No one seems able to oppose them. I'm not saying in the eyes of others this is legitimate- but all surrounding systems of Dominion space would be perceived as Dominion terrirtory at least by the Founders. Any system that opposes the Dominion is destroyed or left with an incurable disease. They probably regarded the galaxy as theirs just waiting to be conquered.

Now when the Dominion informed Starfleet they wouldn't tolerate any incursions into their side of the wormhole Starfleet should have tried to negotiate and at least respect the Dominion's claim to the wormhole. Instead they send their finest combat capable ship into the Gamma quadrant- hardly a peacekeeping mission.

So the Feds brought the war on themselves.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The Dominion was not interested in peace - and this guaranteed there would be no peace:

First thing the Dominion did - they detroyed New Bajor, killing every single colonist there. In other words, they comitted GENOCIDE.
Despite the fact that they knew the bajorans/the Federation didn't even know of the Dominion's existence much less of its territory.
Despite the fact that New Bajor/the wormhole most likely was NOT in dominion territory.

Then they try to infiltrate a spy and they attack and destroy the Odyssey (which was retreating from a rescue mission).

Then they attack the Defiant (on a diplomatic mission) and subject the crew to a simulation "what if we attack the Alpha quadrant?".

Then they try to start a federation tzenchety war, they DO start a klingon cardassian war, various other acts of terrorism, they try to nova bajor's sun - killing BILLIONS.

Finally, they start open war.


The war was not caused by the Federation exploring the Gamma Quadrant or by Dax saying this or that.
It was caused by founder paranoia - as soon as they heard of the Alpha quadrant powers - too powerful for their paranoia - war was inevitable.

If anything, the Federation erred by showing appeasement tendencies in its behaviour vis a vis the Dominion.

 

[Withers]

Frankly, the fact that 5 massive fleets of Dominion Ships were allowed through the Wormhole before Starfleet decided to do anything about it has really irked me.

Imagine if Canada signed an agreement in which they would essentially become a vassal state of China. Do you think the United States would be alright with Chinese tanks, planes, and troops marching through Alaska get to get there? Of course not.

War was very clearly coming. The only problem I have with the Dominion War arc is that the Federation didn't respond sooner and with more intent to win.

-Withers-​

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Frankly, the fact that 5 massive fleets of Dominion Ships were allowed through the Wormhole before Starfleet decided to do anything about it has really irked me.

Imagine if Canada signed an agreement in which they would essentially become a vassal state of China. Do you think the United States would be alright with Chinese tanks, planes, and troops marching through Alaska get to get there? Of course not.

War was very clearly coming. The only problem I have with the Dominion War arc is that the Federation didn't respond sooner and with more intent to win.

-Withers-​

As I said, the Federation's actions were, at times, appeasement. REALLY BAD ideea when you're dealing with someone determined to conquer you.

Middle S5 - Sisko tries to close the wormhole. This fails. Until end S5, the Federation could have closed the wormhole. It didn't, allowing the Dominion to send fleets in the alpha quadrant. Whoever made this decision was an idiot.

Then the Dominion slaughtered all the Federation CITIZENS from the demilitarised zone (only a minority of which were maquis).
The Federation did nothing, betraying its obligation to protact its citizens. You see, the Federation has not only rights regarding its citizens (such as to punish them from breaking its laws regarding...terrorism, let's say) but also obligations (such as protecting its citizens).
If I were part of a Federation member state, I would ask myself why am I still part of the Federation, if the Federation would abandon me to die so easily.
Whoever made this decision betrayed the federation's principles and its citizens. He's a traitor, pure and simple.

 

[indolover]

According to Robert Hewitt Wolfe the Dominion was aware of the Federation long before the wormhole was discovered and would be coming "one day" anyway.

Was this canonically established?

Unless he was referring to the probe Sisko mentioned in Emissary.

 

[neozeks]

Frankly, the fact that 5 massive fleets of Dominion Ships were allowed through the Wormhole before Starfleet decided to do anything about it has really irked me.

Perhaps, at the time of Cardassia joining the Dominion, Starfleet still wasn't ready for war, even with just that one initial Dominion fleet (which was, possibly, the most massive of all the fleets they sent through). It was still forming it's fleets, recalling far-flung vessels etc.

 

[Vanyel]

First thing the Dominion did - they detroyed New Bajor, killing every single colonist there. In other words, they comitted GENOCIDE.

No they didn't. They killed every Bajoran on New Bajor, not every Bajoran; nor did they try to kill every Bajoran, so genocide was not committed. Semantics? Yes, but I think it should be pointed out.

I think that you're right and the Dominion was not interested in peace.

However, the Federation never had to send in any ship to attempt negotiations, a communications beacon could have done just as well.

 

[Arpy]

Why NOT send people? The Dominion committed a conscious act of war attacking the Odyssey. It was NOT a breakdown of diplomacy.

Sending a drone...it could have been like that foiled terrorist plot recently to call 911 for a phony emergency, murder the responding officer, and then commit the main crime of blowing up the funeral full of cops...the Dominion could have requested through the drone that an ambassador and delegation to meet with their own and then blow the entire summit.

Lets not think that the Dominion was interested in anything other than killing people. The Odyssey was getting out of there, the Dominion's position made clear by their unprovoked attack on it. They killed all those people, including their own soldiers, just to drive home how hateful they were.

Also, Dominion space was not initially near the wormhole, nor did they make any attempt to let the Federation know...well, anything about where they stood on anything. They had no more right to deny anyone passage through the wormhole, unlike, say, a highway that starts in Ontario and ends in Boston. Lets not also forget that no one owns the near arbitrary slice of the map that constitutes a quadrant. Just because the Dominion happens to rest in a tiny fraction of the huge portion of the galaxy that we call the Gamma Quadrant, doesn't mean that they have any right to deny anyone passage or settlement in it.

 

[The Wormhole]

- Instead of sending the Odyssey to get destroyed, Starfleet should have signed a non-aggression pact with the Dominion, or a least a treaty with the Founders saying the Federation would not explore the Gamma Quadrant.

Go back and watch The Jem'Hadar. After slaughtering the colony New Bajor, the Dominion capture Sisko and Quark. The Odyssey was sent to mount a rescue mission, which it succeeded at despite getting its ass kicked. It was when they were retreating that the Jem'Hadar engaged a suicide run and destroyed the ship.

And as someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, the Dominion was supposed to be aware of the Federation's exisntence, and were building their forces in preparation for the day when the Federation and Dominion would meet and start a war. However, the discovery of the wormhole accelerated their first encounter by several decades.