The Captain's Rank: Less Important as Time Passes?

[Melakon]

TNG is based more on modern times where communications have made home a quick transmission away, thereby allowing admirals a way to peer over captains shoulders and captains pretty much have to clear really important decisions with their superiors.

This may be one of the reasons 24th century Star Trek never excited me that much-- besides the switching of command and services colors, commodore ranks disappearing, and an android who somehow made everyone forget about androids existing 78 years earlier. The whole style of Star Trek changed, though I guess we have to give Roddenberry the credit for that.

 

[Nebusj]

I see Esteban as someone with a minor command, a pure science ship and he himself likely came up through the ranks as a scientist.

It's not clear if his particular ship even mounted any weapons, he spent his career within the inner core of the Federation doing surveys.

If the Grissom didn't carry weapons then Kirk's wondering whether she'll ``join us or will she fire on us?'' gets to be pretty rhetorical.

 

[T'Girl]

^ Good point.

 

[Push The Button]

I see Esteban as someone with a minor command, a pure science ship and he himself likely came up through the ranks as a scientist.

It's not clear if his particular ship even mounted any weapons, he spent his career within the inner core of the Federation doing surveys.

If the Grissom didn't carry weapons then Kirk's wondering whether she'll ``join us or will she fire on us?'' gets to be pretty rhetorical.

We can assume that Grissom had some kind of weaponry on board. You would want the ability to destroy something like an asteroid if you needed to.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ If Grissom had weapons, then why does Esteban just say "Stand by for evasive" when the Klingon ship attacks? Surely Esteban isn't so clinically thick as to not realize he can shoot back?

And for that matter, why do they have to "stand by" for evasive? Shouldn't they just, you know, EVADE?

 

[Clark Terrell]

^ If Grissom had weapons, then why does Esteban just say "Stand by for evasive" when the Klingon ship attacks? Surely Esteban isn't so clinically thick as to not realize he can SHOOT BACK??

Esteban's style is one of caution to the extreme. Everything he does is with the intention of avoiding problems, be they problems caused by bending Starfleet regulations or problems imposed by beaming recovered Vulcan Starfleet officers onto his ship. Aggression of any kind--even that meant to save his ship and crew--is something he's apparently not capable of.

As to why he gave a stand-by order, it's because he had to get permission from Starfleet first.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ If that's the case - if Esteban was truly such a wuss as to not be capable of any kind of aggression, however justified - then he had no business with a command of his own, even a small ship like that one.

 

[Clark Terrell]

^ If that's the case - if Esteban was truly such a wuss as to not be capable of any kind of aggression, however justified - then he had no business with a command of his own, even a small ship like that one.

Well, given that he was assigned to the Genesis planet by the same people who failed to notify Terrell and his crew that Ceti Alpha V was inhabited by criminals and that the system should be avoided at all costs, it's not surprising that such a weak-willed person was entrusted with handling a delicate situation with far-reaching scientific and political repercussions.

For all we know, Esteban's absolute insistence on following Starfleet regulations was probably the reason he was picked in the first place. Morrow wanted someone he knew wouldn't do anything outside the boundaries of his position. Had he sent Kirk and the Enterprise back to the planet--which actually would have made the most sense in terms of keeping the situation contained--it's likely Kirk would have manufactured his own solution to whatever problem's cropped up, making Morrow's life more difficult than it would have been had Grissom completed its survey of the planet.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ True dat.

Still, I at least have to wonder why Grissom wasn't simply given an escort vessel, one captained by a seasoned military veteran who WOULD have fought back. That ship could have been given strict orders to stay out of the way while Esteban completed his survey, but if any hostile vessels had turned up, they'd be ready to step in and fire back.

 

[Clark Terrell]

^ True dat.

Still, I at least have to wonder why Grissom wasn't simply given an escort vessel, one captained by a seasoned military veteran who WOULD have fought back. That ship could have been given strict orders to stay out of the way while Esteban completed his survey, but if any hostile vessels had turned up, they'd be ready to step in and fire back.

This is where I think the loss of Reliant hurt the most. Terrell and his crew were already read-in on the Genesis project and could have completed the survey themselves. Plus, Reliant had the firepower to defend itself against a Klingon Bird-of-Prey.

Non-canon materials cite Terrell as being captain of the Academy wrestling team (much as Sisko was). Something tells me he'd have run Kruge out of Federation space as soon as he saw the BOP on sensors.

 

[HIjol]

Agree with Cyke as far as the MORE important role of Captain, and I am imagining Star Fleet would not give a Star Ship to a captain who is going to call in for permission for every little thing...

Oh, but they did.

How so?

 

[Clark Terrell]

How so?

The USS Grissom is a type of Federation starship, Oberth-class to be exact. JT Esteban was the vessel's commanding officer. He notified Starfleet every time every time something happened during his survey of Genesis and was prepared to ask their permission to beam his landing party and the child-Captain Spock aboard when Kruge's men destroyed his ship.

 

[Cyke101]

I half-expected expected Estaban to ask Starfleet for permission to raise the shields.

(Okay, now I'm just being mean)

 

[Clark Terrell]

I half-expected expected Estaban to ask Starfleet for permission to raise the shields.

(Okay, now I'm just being mean)

Not at all. I said the same thing earlier in this thread. He ordered his crew to stand by for evasive because he needed Starfleet's permission first.

 

[HIjol]

Not to be an "Argue-Andy", but was his constant communicating with Star Fleet more,in line with the secrecy, sensitivity and nature of the mission?...maybe I need to go back and look again at the kinds of missions and decisions the Captains make...I said it before and I will say it again...it is GREAT to be on such a knowledgeable forum concerning something so important to me...I thank you, Cyke and Terrell, and all the rest...

 

[Clark Terrell]

Not to be an "Argue-Andy", but was his constant communicating with Star Fleet more,in line with the secrecy, sensitivity and nature of the mission?...maybe I need to go back and look again at the kinds of missions and decisions the Captains make...I said it before and I will say it again...it is GREAT to be on such a knowledgeable forum concerning something so important to me...I thank you, Cyke and Terrell, and all the rest...

You're welcome! To answer your question, it's not clear if that's why he was doing it or not. As Esteban appears only in The Search for Spock, it's impossible to know how he behaved during other assignments that weren't as sensitive.

 

[Infern0]

Then you have Janeway who ran her ship like a crazed dictator, rules be damned.

 

[Jedi_Master]

Has someone actually done a comparative analysis of how many times Picard consulted Starfleet command before making a decision or was given direct instructions from Starfleet command versus how many times Kirk consulted Starfleet command before making a decision or was given direct instructions from Starfleet command?

I think the perception is that Picard was apt to ask for instruction or to follow orders, but is that the reality?

 

[Cyke101]

I half-expected expected Estaban to ask Starfleet for permission to raise the shields.

(Okay, now I'm just being mean)

Not at all. I said the same thing earlier in this thread. He ordered his crew to stand by for evasive because he needed Starfleet's permission first.

Could you imagine the other end of that line, the crew at Starfleet communications?

"Sir, it's the Grissom again."
"*Sigh* what does Esteban want now?"
"He wants to know if flushing the toilet will harm the ecosystem of Genesis. He's saying again that he wants to do everything by the book."
"Oh, I can tell him what he to do with that book."

Not to be an "Argue-Andy", but was his constant communicating with Star Fleet more,in line with the secrecy, sensitivity and nature of the mission?...maybe I need to go back and look again at the kinds of missions and decisions the Captains make...I said it before and I will say it again...it is GREAT to be on such a knowledgeable forum concerning something so important to me...I thank you, Cyke and Terrell, and all the rest...

You go on right ahead and be an Argue-Andy. It at least gives the rest of us something to think about

Has someone actually done a comparative analysis of how many times Picard consulted Starfleet command before making a decision or was given direct instructions from Starfleet command versus how many times Kirk consulted Starfleet command before making a decision or was given direct instructions from Starfleet command?

I think the perception is that Picard was apt to ask for instruction or to follow orders, but is that the reality?

I think this is a fair question to ask -- perception vs. actual stats. It might just be that Picard has the advantage of 4 more seasons to talk to Starfleet. But then again, we have contextual opinion like Spock calling Kirk's brand as "cowboy diplomacy", Picard and Janeway talking about how regulations were looser in Kirk's time, and even temporal investigators in DS9 listing Kirk's rap sheet. Kirk himself echoed similar sentiments when he talked to Picard in Generations.

It *would* be funny if it turned out that Kirk talked about carrying a big stick, but actually spoke to Starfleet more. But then again, his disregard for rules and regulations were cemented once he stole the Enterprise. That's guts.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I do recall Kirk being in conflict with a Federation Ambassador on numerous occasions. It is also possible that because of the increased budget and better tech, that TNG could SHOW Picard talking to Starfleet Command, whereas TOS would have Uhura make a comment along the lines of "Starfleet says do this or that".