• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers Strange New Worlds 1x01 - "Strange New Worlds"

Rate the Episode

  • 1 - Excellent

    Votes: 147 45.9%
  • 2

    Votes: 81 25.3%
  • 3

    Votes: 60 18.8%
  • 4

    Votes: 12 3.8%
  • 5

    Votes: 5 1.6%
  • 6

    Votes: 4 1.3%
  • 7

    Votes: 5 1.6%
  • 8

    Votes: 6 1.9%
  • 9

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 10 - Terrible

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    320
  • Poll closed .
Well, you do the math. 225,000 people at most versus millions. It's a hard calculation to make but invasion would've been worse, and might've ended with Japan split in twain.

Nope.

However, the overwhelming historical evidence from American and Japanese archives indicates that Japan would have surrendered that August, even if atomic bombs had not been used — and documents prove that President Truman and his closest advisors knew it.

The allied demand for unconditional surrender led the Japanese to fear that the emperor, who many considered a deity, would be tried as a war criminal and executed. A study by Gen. Douglas MacArthur’s Southwest Pacific Command compared the emperor’s execution to “the crucifixion of Christ to us.”

“Unconditional Surrender is the only obstacle to peace,” Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo wired Ambassador Naotake Sato, who was in Moscow on July 12, 1945, trying to enlist the Soviet Union to mediate acceptable surrender terms on Japan’s behalf.

But the Soviet Union’s entry into the war on Aug. 8 changed everything for Japan’s leaders, who privately acknowledged the need to surrender promptly.

Allied intelligence had been reporting for months that Soviet entry would force the Japanese to capitulate. As early as April 11, 1945, the Joint Chiefs of Staff’s Joint Intelligence Staff had predicted: “If at any time the USSR should enter the war, all Japanese will realize that absolute defeat is inevitable.”

Truman knew that the Japanese were searching for a way to end the war; he had referred to Togo’s intercepted July 12 cable as the “telegram from the [anti-Japanese slur] emperor asking for peace.”

Truman also knew that the Soviet invasion would knock Japan out of the war. At the summit in Potsdam, Germany, on July 17, following Stalin’s assurance that the Soviets were coming in on schedule, Truman wrote in his diary, “He’ll be in the [anti-Japanese slur] War on August 15. Fini [anti-Japanese slur]s when that comes about.” The next day, he assured his wife, “We’ll end the war a year sooner now, and think of the kids who won’t be killed!”

The Soviets invaded Japanese-held Manchuria at midnight on Aug. 8 and quickly destroyed the vaunted Kwantung Army. As predicted, the attack traumatized Japan’s leaders. They could not fight a two-front war, and the threat of a communist takeover of Japanese territory was their worst nightmare.

Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki explained on Aug. 13 that Japan had to surrender quickly because “the Soviet Union will take not only Manchuria, Korea, Karafuto, but also Hokkaido. This would destroy the foundation of Japan. We must end the war when we can deal with the United States.”

While a majority of Americans may not be familiar with this history, the National Museum of the U.S. Navy in Washington, D.C., states unambiguously on a plaque with its atomic bomb exhibit: “The vast destruction wreaked by the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the loss of 135,000 people made little impact on the Japanese military. However, the Soviet invasion of Manchuria … changed their minds.” But online the wording has been modified to put the atomic bombings in a more positive light — once again showing how myths can overwhelm historical evidence.
 
Michael would not have been in a position to hand power to L'Rell in the first place if the Discovery crew had not overcome their cultural and personal differences to bond and trust each other as a crew.
I'm sorry, but I really don't follow how that's the case.

2) The Terran Empire's spore drive tech was explicitly established to be a threat to the fabric of space-time across both the Mirror and Prime Universes. So, no, the Terran Empire was a threat to the Federation.
The tech was a threat to spacetime. We're talking about challenging the Federation's Ideology. If the Empire had sent an armada into the Prime universe to try and encroach on the Federation through conquest _and_ intrigue, you would have a point. But it never got near that point. In fact -- and this is unrelated to our discussion -- now that I think about it, it would've been better to keep the type of story I just made up for S2 and focus on the Klingon war for S1.

There was absolutely a lure for the cast. Michael was faced with the prospect of status, power, and having her ersatz mother figure back.
Something she would never betray anyone for, so it's not like it was something that challenged her or had any chance of ensaring her. The Nexus had better odds of enticing Picard to stay.

The Coppellian Androids almost summoned the Admonition-Makers because they were facing attempted genocide from the Zhat Vash and persecution from the Federation.
That's not the point. The point is that those things are definitely dangerous and threatening. The fear wasn't irrational, although it was definitely part of the problem rather than the solution, as you point out.

That's what makes PIC S1's assertion of the value of diplomacy so important. PIC S1 isn't saying, "Hey, we can have peace as long as we're all really nice people underneath it all." It's saying, we've all messed up. We've all been wrong, and we've all got good reasons to fear each other, but we can still chose to change and still chose a better path. So I (Picard) am going to be vulnerable to you; I'm going to show you that there is another way, that we can learn to trust each other and earn each other's trust legitimately.

That's what real diplomacy is -- learning to forgive and eventually make friends with your enemies, with people who have genuinely done you wrong. And that's what makes PIC S1's assertion of the moral superiority of diplomacy over war so important.
You do make a convincing argument here.
 
Well, you do the math. 225,000 people at most versus millions. It's a hard calculation to make but invasion would've been worse, and might've ended with Japan split in twain.
Japan was already working toward surrender (the US was fully aware of this) when we dropped the bombs. We did it not once, but twice, over several days. We murdered millions of innocents deliberately, not because we were desperate to end a war that was all but over, but as a show of military supremacy.
 
I really like this episode. Classic Trek, polished up and fitted for 2022! Characters are great, pacing is nice. My only complaint is that they went just a bit too far with the small-universe syndrome. La'an Noonien Singh aside, the introduction of Sam Kirk was over the top. When they referenced "Lt. Kirk" at the beginning of the show, I was surprised they would make mention of James T. so soon. But seeing it as Sam was just facepalmy.

Anyway, looking forward to next week!
 
Hmm. Explain the part about "sticking to their principles" again. This is pragmatism.
Yes, it is. I don't see the relation with DSC. You brought it up I don't know why.

Interesting opinion piece.
And yet they didn't surrender after Manchuria, or after Hiroshima, or after Nagasaki and even after the Emperor had had enough of the prospect of getting killed helplessly, they attempted a coup. Didn't seem primed to surrender to me.

But this is a discussion for another thread and another day, unfortunately.
 
I'm sorry, but I really don't follow how that's the case.

Much of the early season is about the distrust the crew has of Michael and her overcoming that, including the cultural conflicts that come from her having been raised on Vulcan. Another subplot is about difficulties working together stemming from things like Saru's alien culture and biology. When Saru declares that "Discovery is ours" after Lorca bolts, it's a triumphant moment about diversity winning out over division, and it's essential to the crew's ability to accomplish everything that follows.

The tech was a threat to spacetime. We're talking about challenging the Federation's Ideology.

Well, you listed threatening the Federation and threatening the Federation's ideology as two separate things. The Terran Empire was very clearly a threat to the Federation via the ISS Charon, and the crew defeated that. The MU arc also explored the allure of Terran fascism and why multicultural democracy; in that way it was about the triumph of multicultural democracy over fascism.

If the Empire had sent an armada into the Prime universe to try and encroach on the Federation through conquest _and_ intrigue, you would have a point. But it never got near that point. In fact -- and this is unrelated to our discussion -- now that I think about it, it would've been better to keep the type of story I just made up for S2 and focus on the Klingon war for S1.

I actually agree with you that they should not have combined the MU arc and the Klingon War arc into one season.

But criticizing how well it did the thing is separate from whether or not it did the thing. DIS S1 was about the challenging and testing Trek philosophy and Trek philosophy's ultimate triumph. Even if you think the manner in which it did the thing could have been better, that is still the thing it did.

That's not the point. The point is that those things are definitely dangerous and threatening. The fear wasn't irrational,

Sure. Never said it wasn't! Just like their fear of organics wasn't irrational -- organics were demonstrably dangerous and threatening to them! Diplomacy isn't just for people who aren't dangerous.

You do make a convincing argument here.

Thank you.
 
Well, you do the math. 225,000 people at most versus millions. It's a hard calculation to make but invasion would've been worse, and might've ended with Japan split in twain.
Those bombs were dropped in locations that were not
Nope.

However, the overwhelming historical evidence from American and Japanese archives indicates that Japan would have surrendered that August, even if atomic bombs had not been used — and documents prove that President Truman and his closest advisors knew it.

The allied demand for unconditional surrender led the Japanese to fear that the emperor, who many considered a deity, would be tried as a war criminal and executed. A study by Gen. Douglas MacArthur’s Southwest Pacific Command compared the emperor’s execution to “the crucifixion of Christ to us.”

“Unconditional Surrender is the only obstacle to peace,” Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo wired Ambassador Naotake Sato, who was in Moscow on July 12, 1945, trying to enlist the Soviet Union to mediate acceptable surrender terms on Japan’s behalf.

But the Soviet Union’s entry into the war on Aug. 8 changed everything for Japan’s leaders, who privately acknowledged the need to surrender promptly.

Allied intelligence had been reporting for months that Soviet entry would force the Japanese to capitulate. As early as April 11, 1945, the Joint Chiefs of Staff’s Joint Intelligence Staff had predicted: “If at any time the USSR should enter the war, all Japanese will realize that absolute defeat is inevitable.”

Truman knew that the Japanese were searching for a way to end the war; he had referred to Togo’s intercepted July 12 cable as the “telegram from the [anti-Japanese slur] emperor asking for peace.”

Truman also knew that the Soviet invasion would knock Japan out of the war. At the summit in Potsdam, Germany, on July 17, following Stalin’s assurance that the Soviets were coming in on schedule, Truman wrote in his diary, “He’ll be in the [anti-Japanese slur] War on August 15. Fini [anti-Japanese slur]s when that comes about.” The next day, he assured his wife, “We’ll end the war a year sooner now, and think of the kids who won’t be killed!”

The Soviets invaded Japanese-held Manchuria at midnight on Aug. 8 and quickly destroyed the vaunted Kwantung Army. As predicted, the attack traumatized Japan’s leaders. They could not fight a two-front war, and the threat of a communist takeover of Japanese territory was their worst nightmare.

Prime Minister Kantaro Suzuki explained on Aug. 13 that Japan had to surrender quickly because “the Soviet Union will take not only Manchuria, Korea, Karafuto, but also Hokkaido. This would destroy the foundation of Japan. We must end the war when we can deal with the United States.”

While a majority of Americans may not be familiar with this history, the National Museum of the U.S. Navy in Washington, D.C., states unambiguously on a plaque with its atomic bomb exhibit: “The vast destruction wreaked by the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the loss of 135,000 people made little impact on the Japanese military. However, the Soviet invasion of Manchuria … changed their minds.” But online the wording has been modified to put the atomic bombings in a more positive light — once again showing how myths can overwhelm historical evidence.
Citation? This is just speculation and a bit nonsensical. Reads like conspiracy bs. I can't see why you would put a quote about civilian deaths not directly impacting the military as proof the bombs were dropped without reason and out of malice. Sure.
 
Much of the early season is about the distrust the crew has of Michael and her overcoming that, including the cultural conflicts that come from her having been raised on Vulcan. Another subplot is about difficulties working together stemming from things like Saru's alien culture and biology. When Saru declares that "Discovery is ours" after Lorca bolts, it's a triumphant moment about diversity winning out over division, and it's essential to the crew's ability to accomplish everything that follows.
There's no doubt that the very tail end of S1 feels like the Trek ideology wins out. For me that's the only point in DSC that I've felt it.

The MU arc also explored the allure of Terran fascism and why multicultural democracy; in that way it was about the triumph of multicultural democracy over fascism.
I really don't want to be a pest but it's shorter to ask you to explain how the allure of fascism was demonstrated through the main cast than re-watching the whole season.
 
Okay, after a rewatch I'm tempted to take my vote up to a 10, 1, whatever. I mean, that is just good and solid. I still have tiny silly quibbles but ill just really worked. Liked the showing of the ship (and the alien air-raid sirens sound just like ours?) With Pike saying he has "the biggest stick" and then his interruption of the summit.

I mean, it's just good. I've nor felt this good after an episode of Trek in a long time.

I'm nit completely "knocked it our of the park" status; more it bounced off the tip of the outfielder's glove and into the stands, but good.

Don't fumble this ball.

Yes, I'm mixing my sports metaphors.

One shot I didn't like? The flashy, swoosh, camera move when they first beam down to the planet. Couldn't we have just stayed fixed on the pad from a stationary spot?
 
Last edited:
I really don't want to be a pest but it's shorter to ask you to explain how the allure of fascism was demonstrated through the main cast than re-watching the whole season.

Well, part of it I think was Michael having to kill the MU counterpart of one of the Shenzhou officers and realizing that she had this darkness inside of her. There are these monologues she has about the danger of getting caught up in her role as Mirror-Burnham. And then, again, there's the realization that she could be with her ersatz mother again. There are also Lorca's scenes where he talks about democracy breaking down, not protecting people against their enemies, etc, as he's trying to talk Burnham into defecting to him. There is a very definite theme of temptation to fascism in those episodes.
 
Well, part of it I think was Michael having to kill the MU counterpart of one of the Shenzhou officers and realizing that she had this darkness inside of her. There are these monologues she has about the danger of getting caught up in her role as Mirror-Burnham. And then, again, there's the realization that she could be with her ersatz mother again. There are also Lorca's scenes where he talks about democracy breaking down, not protecting people against their enemies, etc, as he's trying to talk Burnham into defecting to him. There is a very definite theme of temptation to fascism in those episodes.
Right ok. That's basically just Burnham, then, but point taken.
 
Just watched the episode, which is available free on demand here in my adopted home of New Zealand. That's about as close as you can get to watching it free to air, as I did the original series growing up in Toronto (where SNW is shot) when it first aired. I'm grateful and relieved to say the feel of the new show is just as familiar - the producers may possibly have watched TOS and taken some notes.
 
Okay, after a rewatch I'm tempted to take my vote up to a 10, 1, whatever. I mean, that is just good and solid. I still have tiny silly quibbles but ill just really worked. Liked the showing of the ship (and the alien air-raid sirens sound just lile ours?) With Pike saying he has "then biggest stick" and then his interruption of the summit.

I mean, it's just good. I've nor felt this good after an episode of Trek in a long time.

I'm nit completely "knocked it our of the park" status; more it bounced off the tip of the outfielder's glove and into the stands, but good.

Don't fumble this ball.

Yes, I'm mixing my sports metaphors.

One shot I didn't like? The flashy, swoosh, camera move when they first beam down to the planet. Couldn't we have just stayed fixed on the pad from a stationary spot?
I laughed out loud when I heard the air raid sirens. The bigger "stick" had shown up.
 
If you remove the spots from the alien makeup, it almost reminds me of the Buffy The Vampire Slayer vampire make up. Especially with the yellow eyes.
 
That was one of several period clips featured in Pike's presentation. The next clip is very possibly a progressive protest featuring a "No Justice No Peace" sign. That follows some more scenes from the Jan 6th protest and then general scenes of disorder with riot troops marching in smoke and finally one with what might be a car lit on fire and people throwing molotovs (BLM or related protest?).

Within the logic of the story I would suspect it to have been the result of query "computer, give me half a dozen clips of civil violence during pre-WW3/EugenicsWars/Civil War 2" or something to that effect.

Further Pike's framing around these images is



There is no effort there to point to any 'side' upon which to lay blame. It is a succinct general statement about a particular time period (albeit the single most defining one for humanity, obviously). Moreover, Pike's discourse is about getting beyond blaming and hating each other to prevent a catastrophe - I doubt that within that context he'd be looking to say something like "Now all you have to do is make sure to ostracize/imprison/exterminate all the people that are <insert political persuasion here> and you'll be set"

I'm quite pleasantly surprised that the production chose to go that way - they could have easily done what you suggest and strongly tie it to how some people perceive the present - I think that would have been in direct contradiction to the message that was being conveyed through the Pike character.

I'm really glad they didn't.

Yep. This is right in line with Pike’s extremely tolerant attitudes toward religions in “New Eden” as well.

Frankly, I’d much rather have Trek with a main character like Pike who doesn’t preach about one side being better or one opinion being “right” when it comes to social/political/philosophical issues. I have no desire to live in an ideological echo chamber. I’d rather have the thoughtful introspection that ultimately, no one philosophy was “to blame/evil” while the other was just “innocent/good.” Nine times out of ten, that’s bullshit. Life is way more complicated than that, and our inability to see the values, rationales and motivations of people we disagree with is at the very core of our current failures as a society, as is our inability to look at our own values and beliefs critically when challenged.

Nice to have a character who seems to realize that. I don’t need to be preached to, and I don’t always need to have characters who believe the same things I do, and I don’t need my favorite shows to teach /reassure/reinforce certain leanings. I can figure that out all on my own.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top