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Starfleet hand to hand combat.

The_Baroness

Captain
Captain
Right. So, we know that there are races like the Klingons, who prefer hand to hand combat. So why is it that in situations like the one in DS9's Nor the battle to the strong do we not see so much as a glimpse of a knife? Someone even tells Jake that the Klingons like to get in close with the bat leths. So surely common sense says have something to counter that?
 
Right. So, we know that there are races like the Klingons, who prefer hand to hand combat. So why is it that in situations like the one in DS9's Nor the battle to the strong do we not see so much as a glimpse of a knife? Someone even tells Jake that the Klingons like to get in close with the bat leths. So surely common sense says have something to counter that?

Phasers work just as well at a few inches as they do at a few hundred yards. And a knife, unless we're using the Crocodile Dundee definition, is not going to enable you to block a Bat'leth.
 
Add to that, that while the Klingons talk a good game, from what we've seen on screen they really aren't very skilled fighters.
 
Yeah but they fight against the heroes all the time.

Of course they cant beat up Picard or Sisko. The plot shield protects them.
 
I seem to recall a pregnant Major Kira fighting off a whole whack load of Klingons in Way of the Warrior, so yeah, basically the Klingons are all talk.
 
Add to that, that while the Klingons talk a good game, from what we've seen on screen they really aren't very skilled fighters.

That's one of the many continuity errors they should have gotten rid of. Especially in the TNG movies they had enough time and money to get Dorn proper martial arts training, and could have written a scene where Worf shows some real skills. Especially Nemesis had that potential, with Worf in a big hand to hand/knife to knife scene against the Remans.
 
I seem to recall a pregnant Major Kira fighting off a whole whack load of Klingons in Way of the Warrior, so yeah, basically the Klingons are all talk.
Major Kira did, yes, but she wasn't pregnant at the time. The pregnancy came later in the series.
 
If I ever had to face off with Klingons, I'd hide behind a post and shoot at them from as large a distance as possible. My goal would be to keep them from getting anywhere close to knife-fight range. :rommie:

Since Starfleet sends its people into battle wearing pajamas (they can't invent personal force fields? I guess they value spaceships more than people), it would be a sick joke to issue them knives. Hey how about some body armor at least?
 
Right. So, we know that there are races like the Klingons, who prefer hand to hand combat. So why is it that in situations like the one in DS9's Nor the battle to the strong do we not see so much as a glimpse of a knife? Someone even tells Jake that the Klingons like to get in close with the bat leths. So surely common sense says have something to counter that?

Ya know what counters a bladed weapon nicely? A big fucking gun.

If you're fighting for your life, it pays to have a better weapon than the other guy.
 
It will be discovered at some point in the future that clasping your hands together and hitting your opponent with an invisible hammer is actually more effective than any knife.

On a serious note they should have either refrained from stating that Klingons were much stronger than humans or just directed any fight scenes in a way that shows it takes several humans to subdue one Klingon.

If Klingons are on par with Vulcans as implied in the DS9 baseball episode, then Sisko fighting a Klingon would look like a 10 year old trying to fight his dad.
 
Add to that, that while the Klingons talk a good game, from what we've seen on screen they really aren't very skilled fighters.
NO ONE in Star Trek is a "very skilled fighter" if you go by the visuals. The hand-to-hand and melee choreography is pathetic. It wasn't AS bad in TOS, there were a couple of fight scenes that actually looked decent, but it still wasn't great on the whole, and everything from TNG on was ridiculous. There are only two ways to look at it.
1) In the Trek universe, people (EVERYONE, not just humans) have forgotten how to fight. They all suck at it. But since everyone sucks equally, it's ok, no one has the advantage.
2) It's just another visual discrepancy, and all the fighting wouldn't BE as lame as it appears if it were all "really happening."

#2 is what I tend to go with. :rommie:
That's one of the many continuity errors they should have gotten rid of. Especially in the TNG movies they had enough time and money to get Dorn proper martial arts training, and could have written a scene where Worf shows some real skills. Especially Nemesis had that potential, with Worf in a big hand to hand/knife to knife scene against the Remans.
Would've been nice. I love Trek, but man, their fighting is awful. STXI, at least, has broken this trend a bit. The fights were much better than in previous Trek productions (in particular, Sulu vs. the Romulan on the platform was pretty well done).
Since Starfleet sends its people into battle wearing pajamas (they can't invent personal force fields? I guess they value spaceships more than people), it would be a sick joke to issue them knives. Hey how about some body armor at least?
Why single out Starfleet? NONE of the major races employ any kind of body armor or similar defensive measure for ground troops.

And a knife, though it would be potentially useful during combat situations (since hand-to-hand combat comes up a LOT in Trek, much more than it reasonably should, really), it would actually be more useful as a tool for times when they found themselves without access to their normal technology.

As for "personal force field generators", while it might make sense to US, the real-life audience, that such a thing should be possible given Trek's tech, it's just "not how things work" in this universe (again, evidenced by the fact that NO ONE else uses such things either, including various nations that are far more aggressive than the UFP, save the Borg. And their personal shields are treated as something unique and extremely advanced). That said, the mention of such tech by Admiral Leyton in "Paradise Lost", and the makeshift personal force field Worf makes in "A Fistful of Datas", are both unfortunate. I've said it often about a variety of Trek problems: if something seems dumb from a real-life perspective, but is just a tradition in the franchise for the sake of good drama/exciting TV, we'll probably be willing to just look past it, maybe make fun of it a bit, but accept it. When you call attention to the thing IN THE SHOW, however, then you are in trouble. We see a force field being used in this way, and hear it referenced; and we start to wonder, "So where are those things the rest of the time?"

For another example of this phenomenon, see: the bridge always being super exposed.
It will be discovered at some point in the future that clasping your hands together and hitting your opponent with an invisible hammer is actually more effective than any knife.
Oh geez, the two-fisted hammerblow. :crazy:

That's one of THE dumbest things that has ever come out of the Trek franchise. Whose idea was that, anyway? And how did it catch on SO completely, to the point where people use it all the damn time in the later Treks?
On a serious note they should have either refrained from stating that Klingons were much stronger than humans or just directed any fight scenes in a way that shows it takes several humans to subdue one Klingon.

If Klingons are on par with Vulcans as implied in the DS9 baseball episode, then Sisko fighting a Klingon would look like a 10 year old trying to fight his dad.
Hmm... did they ever actually say that Klingons are stronger than humans to a degree that beating one in combat would be extraordinarily difficult? If they did, I can't remember when.

Regardless, I think that Klingons ARE on par with Vulcans, and both are slightly stronger than humans (on average, of course). I think Vulcan strength has been overblown to ridiculous levels, and if you examine the entirety of the filmed canon, there's no consistency with regards to certain races being supposedly so much stronger or weaker than certain other races. What I take away from it is that some races are slightly or moderately stronger than others, giving them slight advantages on paper in physical competitions that a "weaker" race would have to overcome, but that the actual effect those differences have in a given combat situation are quite miniscule.
 
If I ever had to face off with Klingons, I'd hide behind a post and shoot at them from as large a distance as possible. My goal would be to keep them from getting anywhere close to knife-fight range. :rommie:

Since Starfleet sends its people into battle wearing pajamas (they can't invent personal force fields? I guess they value spaceships more than people), it would be a sick joke to issue them knives. Hey how about some body armor at least?
[ Hey how about some body armor at least?/QUOTE]

The MACOS have that.
 
Right. So, we know that there are races like the Klingons, who prefer hand to hand combat. So why is it that in situations like the one in DS9's Nor the battle to the strong do we not see so much as a glimpse of a knife? Someone even tells Jake that the Klingons like to get in close with the bat leths. So surely common sense says have something to counter that?

Ya know what counters a bladed weapon nicely? A big fucking gun.

If you're fighting for your life, it pays to have a better weapon than the other guy.
Like the old saying goes: Never bring a knife to a gunfight.
 
You would at least expect a starfleet security officer to be at least as well trained as a modern day special forces soldier and crosstrained as perhaps a field medic or engineer.But apart from Major Hayes the onscreen starfleet security men/women have been unifiormly pathetic.Now we all understand the needs of storytelling and plot devices(it wouldn't be much of a story if any escape from the brig ended up quickly subdued)but the martial shortcomings of Starfleet security personnel ended up being frustrating and offputting.
 
Ya know what counters a bladed weapon nicely? A big fucking gun.

If you're fighting for your life, it pays to have a better weapon than the other guy.
But in a hand to hand battle, when you're grappling with your opponent, a knife can be "a better weapon," than a gun.

Plus, knives are quiet (when the occasion call for it)
Plus, knives aren't effected by "weapons deactivators."
Plus, Knives don't run out of power (Ron Tracy).

Would've been nice. I love Trek, but man, their fighting is awful. STXI, at least, has broken this trend a bit. The fights were much better than in previous Trek productions (in particular, Sulu vs. the Romulan on the platform was pretty well done).

First
, I've seen kendo and fencing competitions, Sulu wasn't actual fighting all that well.
Second,
fencing isn't a "martial art."
Third
, the fight between Commador Decker and the security guard in DM was well choreographed. I like the fact that Decker didn't easily beat the younger man, he had to work for it.
Fourth, My personal opinion is that Starfleet security are not soldier, marines or special forces, security is basically military police. That appears to be the role they fill inside of Starfleet.

That said, I've witnesses Seattle police going hand to hand with gang members and they'd kick Starfleet security's asses.

:)
 
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Ya know what counters a bladed weapon nicely? A big fucking gun.

If you're fighting for your life, it pays to have a better weapon than the other guy.
But in a hand to hand battle, when you're grapling with your opponent, a knife can be "a better weapon," than a gun.

If you have a gun, you don't HAVE to grapple with anybody. :)
 
Ya know what counters a bladed weapon nicely? A big fucking gun.

If you're fighting for your life, it pays to have a better weapon than the other guy.
But in a hand to hand battle, when you're grapling with your opponent, a knife can be "a better weapon," than a gun.

If you have a gun, you don't HAVE to grapple with anybody. :)

Knife wins against gun in close combat.
 
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