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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x12 - "Vaulting Ambition"

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If you are able to rise above the more base reasons why many watch [GOT], then good for you. But at least my perception from my limited viewing of some of it and moreso the reactions of various friends and family to it impress me that it is basically following a fancy version of the formula used by the "professional wrestling" programs. ... At least among those I observed, the reactions were not some high-minded philosophical musings, they were celebrating that someone that they had been conditioned to hate intensely had been killed slowly and painfully.
Well, okay, not to pat myself on the back, but I do rise above those "base reasons." And, thankfully, I don't find myself alone in that. I've watched all of GOT at least once and most of it more than once, with a variety of people. I won't deny that there have been a few moments when the show indulges in the disappointingly familiar Hollywood trope of "let's make Character X even more egregiously mustache-twirlingly creepy, so that the audience can get a vicarious thrill when he meets some horrible end"... more noticeably so since the showrunners went past the available GRRM source material... but those are not the show's best moments by a long shot, nor ones I particularly enjoy. For the most part, however, the show has treated pain and death and their consequences (and related motivations) a lot more seriously than that.

And speaking of more serious topics...

In the real world, pretty much every major attempt to create a utopian society has resulted in rigidly hierarchical militaristic society...
Not quite sure how that's relevant here. The UFP is plainly not an attempt to force utopia on anyone; it merely offers it, and lets others choose for themselves. If you don't believe that most people, given a reasonable chance, will choose peace, prosperity, freedom, and self-realization, then you don't believe in the basic philosophical foundations Star Trek was built on, and I'm not quite sure how it would be possible to enjoy the show.

You seem to be assuming that peace can be achieved unilaterally. If someone is intent on either subjugating or simply killing you, your own peaceful intentions will not make their threat cease to exist. It was actually illustrated nicely in the prologue to this series -- the two most ardently pacifist characters were also among the first to die. It isn't because the peaceful folks were evil, it is because the Klingons intended to attack regardless what the Federation representatives said.
The thing it, peace doesn't need to be "achieved"... it's the default state for most human beings. Our evolutionary instincts toward "fight or flight," honed by the struggle to survive against natural threats, are moot in a civilized society; the vast majority of people are seldom if ever confronted by violence, and indeed will go to considerable lengths to avoid it. Only a tiny handful of psychopaths are ever "intent on subjugating or simply killing" anyone. War and violence are anomalies, regressions to obsolete behaviors, and most people have to be prodded, coerced, or brainwashed into participating in them.

Or as Jim Kirk put it in "A Taste of Armageddon"... "Death, destruction, disease, horror. That's what war is all about... That's what makes it a thing to be avoided. ... We’re human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands! But we can stop it. We can admit that we’re killers — but we’re not going to kill today. That’s all it takes! Knowing that we’re not going to kill today."

Indeed, even in the DSC prologue, it wasn't "Klingons" in general who intended to attack the Federation and provoke a war... it was just one religious fanatic and his small band of followers. Guilt by association (even for Klingons) is the kind of fallacy that leads to needless violence.

My dad fought in WWII, and I agree with the common sentiment that in many ways they were the "greatest generation". Those young people sacrificed a great deal in order to help the rest of us be free of tyranny. ... People who do these things are not horrible blots on our society, they are our heroes. ... In contrast, in today's society after many have been born and raised with no experience of what is at stake in a war...
If ever there was anything close to a "just war," taking a stand against against fascism in WWII would be it... but nonetheless I wish Tom Brokaw had never come up with that insipid "greatest generation" tag. I have a fair amount of respect and sympathy for the people who lived through the Great Depression and Second World War, but that doesn't mean they were better people in terms of character than any who came before or after. And even in that generation, there was nothing inherently more noble or heroic about someone who served as a soldier than, say, someone who built a park for the WPA.

Most wars are not WWII. In most of them nothing is at stake except the self-interest of a few rich and powerful people (or a few fanatical ideologues) who point at others and say "you and him go fight." As General Smedley Butler famously put it, "War is a racket... conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many."

There is certainly nothing inherently heroic about the military, or those who enter it as a profession. More to the point, there is nothing admirable about the kind of authoritarian hierarchical thinking, alienation of the Other, valorization of coercive force, and similar ideological tropes that traditionally define the structure of military life. Suffice it to say that my abiding exemplar of the appropriate level of respect for military authority is Hawkeye Pierce in M*A*S*H.

... [today] we have increasing numbers of people who believe that they have a "right to not be offended". ... IMHO, the path to something like the Terran Empire doesn't lie in nationalism, military service, or right-wing politics, but rather in the collectivist belief that people who disagree with them are inherently evil and should be punished for it. Once people buy into the absurd notion that they have a "right to not be offended", then they empower the government to deprive others of one of their most basic rights in a civilized society. It is only when the government decides that the original complainants have also committed some sort of thought crime that some of them wake up to the grave that they've dug for themselves.
Opposing freedom of expression is another matter entirely from being skeptical of militarism, and as a diehard civil libertarian it is not something I would ever defend, on the basis of someone being "offended" or any other reason. However, I think you're straining at gnats while swallowing camels here. While there is undeniably and regrettably a political undercurrent these days (especially on some campuses) of the kind of identity politics that tries to clamp down on opposing views and shut them out, that's not a widespread phenomenon. Historically it has always been, and it remains today, those in power (as opposed to protesters) and particularly those on the political right (as opposed to the left) who are far more likely to suppress or punish ideas they find distasteful. Certainly, there is no reasonable doubt that the MU's "Terran Empire" is very much a creature of right-wing militaristic nationalism.
 
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And simply to address what seems to be an all too common sentiment equating nationalism with evil dictatorships, while certainly there have been instances where collectivists used nationalism to further their agendas, there have also been far more instances where governments fighting against collectivist tyranny and for individual rights have used nationalism to inspire people to fight for basic human rights.

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In the real world, pretty much every major attempt to create a utopian society has resulted in rigidly hierarchical militaristic society, because you cannot make people adhere to whatever the utopian vision is -- from Hitler's Third Reich to Stalin's Communist future -- without employing a massive use of force.

I mean, every system uses massive use of force. Capitalism kills more people in a decade than Communists could even hope to dream of. You have the mass imperialism of the west, then the brutal conditions of workers, then the restricting lower classes of rights to health, food and life.

The thing is "Capitalism won" so deaths that are directly result of our individualist system, are blamed on the poor and those that died, rather than the system itself. Africans who die from malnutrition or preventable illness didn't die because it's not profitable to save these peoples lives even though we easily could and it's instead easier to withhold medicine and sell it only to the highest bidder, they die because their poor and because they're poor they're obviously immoral. That is how deaths directly attributed to our awful system are counted.

Liberalism didn't come about with people holding hands singing kumbahyah as well, it came through with bloody revolutions, mass executions and civil wars and imperial conquest that made the Bolshevik Revolution look like a walk in the park. Liberalism was literally spread by Napoleon mass murdering his way across Europe.

Once people buy into the absurd notion that they have a "right to not be offended", then they empower the government to deprive others of one of their most basic rights in a civilized society.
This is a very shallow look at the issues with free speech. Frankly, nobody actually believes in Free speech and it's actually impossible to have free speech because speech will always have consequences. The people who have their speech most restricted in the West are minorities that constantly have to put up with white conservative bigotry and are not allowed to speak out or are scared to speak out, yet it's the white male conservatives who claim their the victims of attacks on free speech while they attack literally every minority group there is and make a dangerous and hostile environment.
You either side with bigots right to speech and thus you are pro-censoring minorities. Or you side with minorities and your a pro-censoring bigots.

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Contrapoints (A philosophy phd) does a very good job here explaining that free speech isn't actually a thing that exists nor can you "defend free speech" without silencing others.

Fascists (with a capital "F") and Nazis are not the same thing. Nazis had some fascist tendencies, but they weren't Fascists. That you're conflating the two hurts your credibility somewhat.

Nazis were absolutely Fascists. Fascism is less of a coherent political ideology like Neoliberalism, liberalism, socialism, conservatism, traditionalism, socialism and more how a political movement operates
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/
 
It was odd though, he ignored the demand to state the name for a prolonged period. Not sure why the writers made that choice.

If Lorca had said her name while in the agonizer booth, would he really have gotten any mercy? Unlikely. So, he played the hand out and got his chance. I've said it before and I mean it now more than ever: never play poker with Lorca.
Initially, of course, it did make viewers think he simply didn't know the name because he was Prime Lorca.

From his own point of view, though? I'd go farther than saying he wouldn't have "gotten any mercy." I think he could reasonably assume that the minute he gave Maddox the satisfaction of hearing the name, he'd be a dead man. So he had to hold out.
 
He has a duty to protect a POW under his care.
I have less problems with this than the infamous Tuvix Janeway decision. Not saying it's great, but it's hardly worse than other Starfleet personnel have decided in other iterations.
 
Yeah, this is nothing compared to the decision made to create Sim just to harvest the clone's genetic material and save Trip's life. A sentient replica of a human being that had the memories and emotions of the original person was created in a lab and then killed just to use its body for a medical procedure. To date we have yet to see any ethical decision on DSC that would exceed the raw emotion and moral issues raised by the events of the episode "Similitude(ENT)."

Both Sim and Tuvix are more controversial issues than anything dealing with Mirror Georgiou, Lorca and Burnham.
 
I love it when people use the message board devoted to Star Trek to sell their own very special views on politics and various belief systems.
I can see how that might get out of hand, but I don't think it has in this thread. From the very start Trek has always been a vehicle for political and philosophical points, after all (as is much of the best SF), and it would be awfully constraining to avoid discussing those aspects of it. When we're discussing the political and historical roots of involving an obvious allegory like the MU, the ideological antithesis of the UFP, those aspects seem especially relevant.

Well, these people were quite commonplace IRL. What would you call those who were in charge of the Genocide of the Amerindian Populations ? ... It's just vile and wrong, something that should not have been done at all. We've been doing terrible shit 90% of our History, that's the thing.

Commercial Slavery of African peoples was banned in the 19th Century, but in places like the U.S, Black People only gained full recognition as Citizens in the 1960s. In South Africa until the 1990s they still had the Apartheid. Having this Far Right upsurge just after we barely walked out of other horrible situations is scary as hell. Maybe TOS Mirror Universe was supposed to be a cartoony one-shot thing in the 1960s, but when watching DISCO in 2018 I will be damned if the Mirror Universe as it is portrayed in DSC doesn't ring me any bells...

I don't even see it as a "Mirror", it's more like "what if we were a little bit more evil ?". ... If we are not careful our future generations may experience that too, that's why things like the Alt-right sound so terrifying.
Some excellent examples here, no question. Obviously, native Americans got a very raw deal. Obviously, slavery was a thing. Other examples abound. I'm not trying to whitewash anything. (For those who haven't already read it, Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States is well worth the time.) What I am saying is that while we as a society sometimes fall short of our higher ideals, over time we move closer to them. We're imperfect, but we improve. Concerning those examples, for instance, today we understand that people like Christopher Columbus and Andrew Jackson, John Calhoun and Jefferson Davis, are not heroes to idolize. They stood for noxious views and committed repellent acts. They were on the wrong side of history.

But even in those historical moments, I would argue that most people were not ideologically committed to these things... at worst, they accepted them as "how things are"... and those who were committed were a relative handful who had particular interests at stake.

What I'm saying is simply that, in King's words, the arc of the moral universe does bend toward justice.

The Mirror Universe, as a fictional construct, seems to defy that notion. It says that (in at least one reality) brutality and oppression wins. Consistently. Every time.

I like the idea that the purpose of the construct is to ask "what if we were a little bit more evil?" But that's where this thread of the discussion originated. The allegory is far more interesting if most of the denizens of the MU really are only a "little bit" more evil, doing "what they have to" to survive in a perverse society... which is to say, not necessarily murdering psychopathic cannibals. Not Josef Mengele, just "good Germans."

IOW, unless it's being played for camp (and in this storyline, it's not), less is more.

I'd say these MU episodes have been the least camp of any MU episodes to date. The problem is--as presented on screen--the overall concept doesn't lend itself to nuance. David Mack handles it much better in his MU novels, though.
Maybe it doesn't. I think it's at least possible, though, along the lines O_Kav discusses... and I think this storyline is at least trying. It's just not quite hitting the mark all the time. It would benefit from more fine-tuning. IMHO the Kelpian dinner was definitely a misstep.

Social awkwardness, by itself, does not an autistic person make. ... That party during the Mudd episode would have been hell on earth for an autistic person, if for nothing else because of the harsh sensory input, but also likely because of the tons of nonverbal communication in such a situation we can't process intuitively.
I know exactly what you mean — I can definitely relate in terms of "no intuition for nonverbal cues" and other social norms, and I thought that party scene as depicted seemed out of character for Tilly. I wasn't sure what the writers were thinking there. (It's hardly the only instance of inconsistent characterization in the show so far, though.)

I mean, every system uses massive use of force. Capitalism kills more people in a decade than Communists could even hope to dream of. You have the mass imperialism of the west, then the brutal conditions of workers, then the restricting lower classes of rights to health, food and life.

The thing is "Capitalism won" so deaths that are directly result of our individualist system, are blamed on the poor and those that died, rather than the system itself...
Interesting post. I can agree with you on this part...

Liberalism was literally spread by Napoleon mass murdering his way across Europe.
...while I'm simply confused by what you're getting at with this part (what exactly does a self-proclaimed Emperor have to do with any conception of liberalism?)...

Frankly, nobody actually believes in Free speech and it's actually impossible to have free speech because speech will always have consequences. ... You either side with bigots right to speech and thus you are pro-censoring minorities. Or you side with minorities and your a pro-censoring bigots.
...and I wholeheartedly and emphatically disagree with you here. Freedom of speech is not a chimera, it's not a moving target, it's not a pretext for the powerful. It is a very real thing. Any person of principle absolutely can (and should) defend it, and I do. I am not "pro-censoring" anybody, no matter how much I may disagree with their views. Speaking as a lawyer, I would argue that our tradition of First Amendment jurisprudence has done a very good job indeed of preserving and protecting (and even expanding) free expression, political, artistic, and otherwise, not least by clarifying how extremely limited its boundaries are.

I didn't watch the 16-minute video, but I've encountered contrary arguments from philosophers and others many times over the years, and to be blunt, I think they're a load of bollocks. Pure sophistry.

Acts of speech may "always have consequences," as you put it, but those consequences mostly involve the spread of competing ideas, and that's a feature, not a bug. It can only be constrained when the consequences involve a "clear and present danger" (i.e., both the intent and the likelihood) of inciting imminent violence... or when you're damaging someone's reputation by spreading a known falsehood... or in a handful of other scenarios where there's a similarly overwhelming countervailing interest at stake.

Otherwise, speech prevails. As it should. When censorship is allowed, after all, it's almost always powerful defenders of the status quo who perpetrate it and benefit from it. (Protesters advocating to censor "bigots" should keep that historical trend in mind. Who are they actually asking to invest with that decision-making power? It almost certainly won't be them or their political allies.)

...Which brings us back to the part where we agreed, and the interesting implications of all of this for Star Trek. In particular: I don't think anyone would argue against the notion that it's the winners who write the history books, and who (often) suppress ideas that undermine their preferred narratives. Given that, I think it would be Really Interesting to see what the MU's "Terran Empire's" version of its own history actually looks like... not only would it help clarify all the speculating we're doing here, but it would be far more illuminating about what its denizens actually believe than scenes of gratuitous cannibalism or torture.

But that would take a lot of work on the part of the writers, and again, the TV format is perhaps not best suited for that sort of nuance. So perhaps it's too much to hope for...
 
I have less problems with this than the infamous Tuvix Janeway decision. Not saying it's great, but it's hardly worse than other Starfleet personnel have decided in other iterations.

I don't have anything against it in this particular case either, in fact I liked Saru's "It's your mess, you deal with it" attitude, I just had a problem with the broad stroked "Saru had no duty to protect an enemy attacker."
 
The Mirror Universe, as a fictional construct, seems to defy that notion. It says that (in at least one reality) brutality and oppression wins. Consistently. Every time.

I would point out that the Terran Empire met it's end, while the UFP keeps on being a dominant force. The Klingon-Cardassian Alliance is not fairing that well either.
 
What I'm saying is simply that, in King's words, the arc of the moral universe does bend toward justice.

In Social Sciences this is approximate to what some call teleology or the march of progress. The idea that Progress always wins in the end. That's why some thinkers like Marx thought Revolutions were a historical inevitability.

I mean, yeah, the MU can be some sort of anti-teleological Universe. However, I think they did progress. In their own fucked up manner, but they did. There doesn't seem to be any traces of Racism among Humans or Homophobia, for example. What brings Humanity together is their hatred for Alien Races. I mean, it's still something isn't it ? Even if it's horrible and all. Maybe Progress in the MU is way, way slower than ours.
 
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Some very interesting comments and thoughts over these 40 pages. Way to many to comment on individually, so I am just going to throw out some of my own random thoughts.

I am unable to see how the reveal of Lorca being from the MU diminishes the character in any way.

Why is what the Empress told Burnham being taken as the gospel truth? Deceit on her part should be expected.

What if there is another hint being dropped by the eating of the Kelpian. I would need to rewatch all the episodes, but to me it seems that Lorca puts a lot of trust in Saru and his abilities. This is in stark contrast to how his race is viewed by the Terrans of the MU. Could this be something to help set up that Lorca isn't the run-of-the-mill Terran?

I don't believe they will spend more than this season in the MU. I don't think they will get home, either, though. I could see two scenarios played out. One being the traversing of the network and alternate universes, trying to stop the death of it. The second being dumped out in another time, maybe post-TOS/pre-TNG or post TNG/DS9/VOY. If the want to say it is prime timeline, then the technology didn't exist in any series we've seen, so it would make sense that they don't make it back. But who knows what will happen?

Looking forward to the last three episodes to see how this all ends for the season.
 
Oh, I completely understand why Burnham would do that when she is seconds away from being killed.

What I don't understand at all is why a few posters here would think that Lorca being deceptive is morally worse than the mass-murdering Emperor who tortures and kills multitudes and eats Kelpians.

I think they're mostly imagining him molesting Michael when she was underage and getting hot under the collar. As usual, that scenario has NO basis in the script or the show. But this is what happens now in the age of the internetz and SJW shit.
 
I am unable to see how the reveal of Lorca being from the MU diminishes the character in any way.
Not to speak for anyone, but I think the complaint isn't that it diminishes the character, it's that it diminishes his place in the narrative. A complex, broken man is more interesting than a man who comes from a crappy universe. Or something.

Is the eating of Kelpian meant to draw a comparison between Terrans and PU Klingons? Seeing as some of those dudes ate Phillipa and all. ;)

I'm still not completely convinced that there won't be some time travel (accidental or otherwise) involved when/if Disco goes back to the PU. Arriving just before you left is such a Trek staple.
 
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