Spock/Chapel are not a good couple. The build up was the ''fun'' part

[Ringobeatle]

Usually I groaned when it was clear they were pushing a spock/chapel romance. I thought it will mess with canon too much, but I gave it an open mind of some sort. I did not even mind the Soap Opera angle but it just was not written well when they got together.

The build up, while cliche and predictable was okay but once they became a couple the light was gone and it blew up by Subspace Rhapsody.

Peck/Bush have an unusual kind of chemistry vibe, its like their chemistry works better when they are tempting things, doing the will they or wont they but as a couple it just does not carry the same energy or conviction. Its like, I am watching them knowing this is going to end sometime soon. They look and feel off as a couple and I am glad in Episode 7, this was Brad Bolimer point of view too.

Like with many cliche tv romances, it is like the writers did not know what to do with them from episode 6 and their relationship content was poor. I kind of find it quite embarrassing for Star Trek.

In episode 6- they cannot decide what they really are. it is clear, they are not on the same page on the nature of their romance, Chapel almost looked bored playing chess with Spock.

in episode 7- Bolimer tells her, Spock may be acting and she may be a phase. Which upsets her and the fake Spock smile was just bizzare.

in episode 8- she blows Spock off when he tries to help her deal with truma. As episode 6, they have a lack of understanding of who each other are.

in episode 9- she breaks up with him publicly in front of everyone one.

in episode 10- Spock admits they got into a fight, ...like why are they still fighting?and while this episode gives some hope they may get back together, which we know may not be for long, because of TOS.

But more importantly Episode 10, suffered from poor story telling just to shoehorn the romance again. Somethings I need to ask

1. Why is Spock apologising? She did him wrong.
   
   
2. We knew Chapel was not dead, so the emotions from Spock and Oretga had little impact
   
   
3. Why is Chapel the only survivor? they wanted to give spock/chapel bonding in space without good writing fitted for star trek. chapel should not have been the only survivor. Spock should have checked for more survivors. This is a show about star fleet officer saving lives. Not a romance of 2 people alone in space.
   
   
4. Chapel is giving too much mary sue vibes as the only survivor and the worst romances tend to be because one of the characters is a mary sue or both are.
   

A lot of people hate romance in fantasy and science fiction and in Harmogy you see the reasons why. writers can get too carried away and they begin to sacrifice good story telling for romance.

I have been watching trek since forever. The Spock/Chapel romance is one of the most un-trek romance ever done, the worst for Spock. Star Trek has never had a soap opera romance before or a romance were a good story will be pushed aside. Usually star trek portrays romances as mature, settled and normally realistic....nothing too dramatic for daytime soap TV. SNW seem to have missed the memo of how to do a good star trek romance with spock/chapel.

I am curious to see, how SNW finally ends Spock/Chapel . I hope when it ends, the writing will be much better and more trekkie from what we have seen so far.

 

[Mudd]

The Christine/Spock romance has been one of my favorite parts of SNW.

Ah, the "apologizing" thing again. You ever been head-over-heels? You ever been through a bad breakup? Spock's behavior is startlingly likely.

Christine's not a "Mary Sue," an obnoxious term that at one time used to have a particular meaning but has become simple name-calling. Kirk was a "Mary Sue," all right.

It won't go easily for them, obviously. No one knows when or even if it will really end.

The people who don't like romance in Trek will just have to get over it.

 

[Ringobeatle]

The Christine/Spock romance has been one of my favorite parts of SNW.

Ah, the "apologizing" thing. You ever been head-over-heels? You ever been through a bad breakup? Spock's behavior is startlingly likely.

It won't go easily for them, obviously. No one knows when or even if it will really end.

The writing is all over the place with the romance. The writers do not know what to do with them and at the same time, they are also trying to stay true to Canon.For Star Trek, that romance has never been a big issue. They dropped the ball with the love triangle.

If they wanted to shift things from canon. I would have preferred it if Spock and Tpring remained a couple and we saw an ongoing Vulcan courtship than what we got with Spock and Chapel.


Jess Bush/Ethan Peck also have little chemistry as an actual couple. Its like you watch them with your nose up because you know their romance is going to end. Spock and Tpring chemistry was better for a long term stable romance that fits better with star trek romances we see in DS9. The show should have stuck with that.

 

[Ringobeatle]

The Christine/Spock romance has been one of my favorite parts of SNW.

Ah, the "apologizing" thing again. You ever been head-over-heels? You ever been through a bad breakup? Spock's behavior is startlingly likely.

Christine's not a "Mary Sue," an obnoxious term that at one time used to have a particular meaning but has become simple name-calling. Kirk was a "Mary Sue," all right.

Christine been the only survivor of the Carugya is very mary sue. Why was she the only person to survive? What makes her special that she alone gets to live? I have read trekkie reactions here on the finale and a lot of fans have said the same thing.
redshirtalwaysdie wrote an entire piece about it it. They went as far as saying the show is overwriting chapel and the romance with spock was no t handled well either.

 

[Mudd]

Yeah, you don't like the romance between the two characters. I got that already.

Love doesn't make the logical sense you're looking for here. That's why writers return to it as the motivator for interesting behavior, again and again.

"Mary Sue" is a meaningless term.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Chapel found out having something isn't as good as wanting something was.

She's an unhinged wild child, Spock is everything that should balance her out but it doesn't really work like that.

I've loved it. Sucks for Spock but... it sucked for me too. It hits close to home. I learned and he'll learn too.

 

[Ringobeatle]

Yeah, you don't like the romance between the two characters. I got that already.

Love doesn't make the logical sense you're looking for here. That's why writers return to it as the motivator for interesting behavior, again and again.

"Mary Sue" is a meaningless term.

Considering mary sue came from star trek and has been used well to distinguished good and bad writing. I do not think it is an unhinged term.

Star trek has made a lot of contribution to pop culture and the creation of the mary sue is one of the best.

There are a lot of established acclaimed authors and screen writers that reference the term mary sue when they plan to write.

 

[Pauln6]

TOS Spock was definitely a Mary Sue, to a lesser extent, Kirk.

Modern Trek obsesses over characters being exceptional. I'm fine with Spock being exceptional. I don't need them all to be exceptional. Most of the time I am happy with them just being competent. Exceptional characters tend to make terrible officers. I prefer all-rounders.

I never once thought TOS Kirk was going to die. Putting the characters through pain and trauma while supporting charcters buy the farm is usually exciting enough.

So no, Chapel isn't a Mary Sue but yes, they should have put some effort into explaining how she was the sole survivor.

That their relationship failed is realistic. They are young with goals other than romance. Chapel is not career Starfleet so an opportunity outside her secondment is going to take her away. Their lives are not moving in tandem. Thousands of relationships fail for this very reason every day.

 

[The Wormhole]

We knew Chapel was not dead, so the emotions from Spock and Oretga had little impact

We, the audience knew Chapel wasn't dead, but Spock and Ortegas in that moment had no way of knowing that.

Why is Chapel the only survivor?

Because she's a main character and that's how television works.

Chapel is giving too much mary sue vibes

Guess my days of not taking you seriously have certainly reached a middle.

 

[Ringobeatle]

Chapel found out having something isn't as good as wanting something was.

She's an unhinged wild child, Spock is everything that should balance her out but it doesn't really work like that.

I've loved it. Sucks for Spock but... it sucked for me too. It hits close to home. I learned and he'll learn too.

Chapel got freaked out by Boilmer message.

TOS Spock was definitely a Mary Sue, to a lesser extent, Kirk.

Modern Trek obsesses over characters being exceptional. I'm fine with Spock being exceptional. I don't need them all to be exceptional. Most of the time I am happy with them just being competent. Exceptional characters tend to make terrible officers. I prefer all-rounders.

I never once thought TOS Kirk was going to die. Putting the characters through pain and trauma while supporting charcters buy the farm is usually exciting enough.

So no, Chapel isn't a Mary Sue but yes, they should have put some effort into explaining how she was the sole survivor.

That their relationship failed is realistic. They are young with goals other than romance. Chapel is not career Starfleet so an opportunity outside her secondment is going to take her away. Their lives are not moving in tandem. Thousands of relationships fail for this very reason every day.

Spock would have been a strong case for a Mary Sue had he been full human but Spock is Vulcan. Vulcan always remind us they are better and somewhat superior to Humans. I do not think Spock is a mary sue as there is enough explanation of what made him special or better than Humans.

Chapel is a mary sue in Hegemony. When Spock rescues her there should have been more survivors. Spock should have at least searched. We knew she was not dead when Spock or Oretega were talking about her. Mourning her. A trend for a mary sue is they try to false the audience to have emotions that is not earned or believable, which is what we got in Hegemony. No one bought the emotion spent on chapel since we knew she has Plot Armor but the writers kept on pushing the emotion that was not there.

A lot of romance fail but it is better when it is written well and people did invest in it for quite a long time. They were barely together before she called it off and spock realised he was the X. They got together on a very shady and rushed start only for it to end too quickly. SNW is not hard on star dates, However I do not think the lasted for 3 months.

A lot of people here know a lot about Buffy, The Buffy/Angel was a romance that failed in a realistic fashion. Spock/Chapel just suffered from bad writing. As for now, they are more like a fling versus Spock/Tpring.

 

[Mudd]

The Spock-Christine relationship is quite well-written, and the actors have great chemistry. It's awesome.

I was a big Spuffy fan.

 

[ED-209]

1. Why is Spock apologising? She did him wrong.

Yep, it's her who should be apologising to him - real relationships are like that though so it's not unreasonable.

Christine been the only survivor of the Carugya is very mary sue. Why was she the only person to survive?

The below:

Because she's a main character and that's how television works.

It's how every TV show does it.

 

[Ringobeatle]

We, the audience knew Chapel wasn't dead, but Spock and Ortegas in that moment had no way of knowing that.

Because she's a main character and that's how television works.

Guess my days of not taking you seriously have certainly reached a middle.

The Spock-Christine relationship is quite well-written, and the actors have great chemistry. It's awesome.

I was a big Spuffy fan.

It is not well written.

Spock should have waited longer before he got with Chapel, after Tpring wanted a cool off. I would have preferred it, if after Charades, they build spock/chapel more as friends more and they have their first kiss in the last episode of season 2, leaving season 3 open to explore the romance. It would have been better writing than Spock rushing to be with Chapel before Tpring left the ship.

Bolimer should not have revealed that They were not together in the future after they only got together like yesterday. The writers had them together in the last episode only for them to sow the seeds of a break up in the next episode.

Chapel breaking it off with him in Subspace Rhapsody was bad and made little sense.

Well written romance even in star trek do not rush things, The SNW writers just forced a lot on us.

Well written romance tend to last longer. the couple should have more happy times without drama for the sake of it. I love DS9 for this. I love TNG for this. SNW Spock/Chapel do not have the same factor. They read more like a teen soap. If Chapel is meant to be Spock's first love. They could have done it better.

 

[The Wormhole]

Spock should have waited longer before he got with Chapel, after Tpring wanted a cool off.

Maybe, but people rush into relationships all the time whether it's advisable or not. That's life.

Bolimer should not revelated that They were not together in the future after they only got together like yesterday.

Definitely not, but that's just how Boimler acts. He's well meaning, and believed in this moment he was acting out of a sense of preserving the timeline, but because of his anxiety he rushed into the situation and acted without the fact. Again, things similar to this do have precedent with real world relationsips.

Well written romance even in star trek do not rush things, The SNW writers just forced a lot on us.

Well written romance tend to last longer. the couple should have more happy times without drama for the sake of it.

I don't get the impression the Spock/Chapel romance was ever imagined to be a long term happily ever after thing. It was meant to be an affair where two people attracted to each other get together under what may not be optimal circumstances and learn things don't work out. It's actually a very realistic approach to relationships that I don't see on TV very often and have never seen on Star Trek prior.

I love DS9 for this. I love TNG for this.

Oh my, no. While DS9 has a few romances which weren't bad, TNG failed at romance. And I mean FAILED.

 

[Jedi Marso]

But more importantly Episode 10, suffered from poor story telling just to shoehorn the romance again. Somethings I need to ask

Why is Spock apologising? She did him wrong.

He's simping. Looks like he is already on his way to getting over it.

We knew Chapel was not dead, so the emotions from Spock and Oretga had little impact

Why is Chapel the only survivor? they wanted to give spock/chapel bonding in space without good writing fitted for star trek. chapel should not have been the only survivor. Spock should have checked for more survivors. This is a show about star fleet officer saving lives. Not a romance of 2 people alone in space.

Indeed. Zero. In fact, it has been remarked on as the most contrived, story-breaking element of the episode. Chapel, the sole survivor of the Cuyoga.

Chapel is giving too much mary sue vibes as the only survivor and the worst romances tend to be because one of the characters is a mary sue or both are.

Chapel doesn't come close to the technical definition of a mary sue, but some of those elements were starting to emerge this season. Hopefully we're moving past that.

I am curious to see, how SNW finally ends Spock/Chapel . I hope when it ends, the writing will be much better and more trekkie from what we have seen so far.

My hope is that we've already seen the end, other than the inevitable angst and sideways looks.

 

[Jedi Marso]

I notice the 'Mary Sue' term rearing its head here quite a bit, with someone even claiming that Kirk is a 'mary sue' character.

A 'mary sue' is when a writer effectively writes themselves into the story in the form of a new 'secondary character', but in such a way that they overshadow the main characters and become the central piece of the narrative. They commonly solve all the problems, give advice to the main characters, romance the main characters, and know more than the main characters when they shouldn't. In the end, they often save the day, relegating the regular cast to the sidelines. A 'mary sue' is essentially a writer making themselves (by proxy of their character) the unlikely hero of the story.

Kirk and Spock were the main characters of TOS, so by that yardstick alone they cannot be considered mary sue characters.

Chapel is an established character from TOS, and she isn't written by any one writer. The writers can be accused of 'over-writing' her, or giving her mary sue elements, but aside from a couple of egregious lapses (killer combat kung fu girl on popeye juice), she largely stays within the lane of her position and abilities. The romance stuff with Spock has been atrocious, and her being sole survivor on the Cuyoga was pure, story-breaking plot armor that was only needed because the writers wanted to touch your Spock/Chapel feelies in the finale. But a mary sue? Not even close.

Side note: The Cuyoga situation would have been much better handled and much more believable if Chapel had stayed on the surface with Batel, been rescued from there along with Batel, and Enterprise had simply scanned 'no survivors' before Spock iced the Gorn and sent the saucer plunging into the beacon.

But, anyway. TLDR: You keep saying 'Mary Sue'. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[Ringobeatle]

Maybe, but people rush into relationships all the time whether it's advisable or not. That's life.

Definitely not, but that's just how Boimler acts. He's well meaning, and believed in this moment he was acting out of a sense of preserving the timeline, but because of his anxiety he rushed into the situation and acted without the fact. Again, things similar to this do have precedent with real world relationsips.

I don't get the impression the Spock/Chapel romance was ever imagined to be a long term happily ever after thing. It was meant to be an affair where two people attracted to each other get together under what may not be optimal circumstances and learn things don't work out. It's actually a very realistic approach to relationships that I don't see on TV very often and have never seen on Star Trek prior.

Oh my, no. While DS9 has a few romances which weren't bad, TNG failed at romance. And I mean FAILED.

People do rush into romances but this is Spock. He is not like most people. I have seen Spock is other romances from TOS, Kelvinverse, Novelverse , Comicverse and Spock saw getting with a woman as a big deal. He tends to take his time.

Boimler did not need to do that. I do not fault Boimler, I fault the writers. Once Boilmer told her, she may be a phase, their romance was over. we knew it is over, now we have to trace the steps of what made it over. It was too soon. they needed more bliss to be a couple you want to root for. It was hard to root for them because of how things were with Tpring already.

Spock is not meant to have affairs while his fiancé is still hanging. It is not realistic for Spock. You say you do not see this on TV but this is what TV is all about. affairs, flings, one night stands, short romances. spock/chapel and the love triangle define cliche TV that some writers do not go there anymore. A lot of Teen prime time drama try better n ot to do a spock/chapel kind of romance because it has become the standard for people to have short term flings only for the romance to blow up and fail in less than 3 episodes. Putting Spock in this type of story was a big let down and bad writing for what is mostly a well written character in the star trek universe even when it is romantic.


Wonderful that Kirk/Laan romance has less damage than Spock/Chapel. Odd enough because we expect Kirk to be the person in a fling and an affair.


TNG had Troi and Riker, I see them as the best star trek couple.

 

[Mudd]

People do rush into romances but this is Spock. He is not like most people. I have seen Spock is other romances from TOS, Kelvinverse, Novelverse , Comicverse and Spock saw getting with a woman as a big deal. He tends to take his time.

Boimler did not need to do that. I do not fault Boimler, I fault the writers. Once Boilmer told her, she may be a phase, their romance was over. we knew it is over, now we have to trace the steps of what made it over. It was too soon. they needed more bliss to be a couple you want to root for. It was hard to root for them because of how things were with Tpring already.

Spock is not meant to have affairs while his fiancé is still hanging. It is not realistic for Spock. You say you do not see this on TV but this is what TV is all about. affairs, flings, one night stands, short romances. spock/chapel and the love triangle define cliche TV that some writers do not go there anymore. A lot of Teen prime time drama try better n ot to do a spock/chapel kind of romance because it has become the standard for people to have short term flings only for the romance to blow up and fail in less than 3 episodes. Putting Spock in this type of story was a big let down and bad writing for what is mostly a well written character in the star trek universe even when it is romantic.


Wonderful that Kirk/Laan romance has less damage than Spock/Chapel. Odd enough because we expect Kirk to be the person in a fling and an affair.


TNG had Troi and Riker, I see them as the best star trek couple.

You're mistaken about most of this, but certainly about Riker/Trol. What a boring couple of stiffs.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Wonderful that Kirk/Laan romance has less damage than Spock/Chapel. Odd enough because we expect Kirk to be the person in a fling and an affair.

Kirk is used to letting them down easy.

 

[Pauln6]

Chapel got freaked out by Boilmer message.




Spock would have been a strong case for a Mary Sue had he been full human but Spock is Vulcan. Vulcan always remind us they are better and somewhat superior to Humans. I do not think Spock is a mary sue as there is enough explanation of what made him special or better than Humans.

Chapel is a mary sue in Hegemony. When Spock rescues her there should have been more survivors. Spock should have at least searched. We knew she was not dead when Spock or Oretega were talking about her. Mourning her. A trend for a mary sue is they try to false the audience to have emotions that is not earned or believable, which is what we got in Hegemony. No one bought the emotion spent on chapel since we knew she has Plot Armor but the writers kept on pushing the emotion that was not there.

A lot of romance fail but it is better when it is written well and people did invest in it for quite a long time. They were barely together before she called it off and spock realised he was the X. They got together on a very shady and rushed start only for it to end too quickly. SNW is not hard on star dates, However I do not think the lasted for 3 months.

A lot of people here know a lot about Buffy, The Buffy/Angel was a romance that failed in a realistic fashion. Spock/Chapel just suffered from bad writing. As for now, they are more like a fling versus Spock/Tpring.

Spock is TOTALLY a Mary Sue in TOS. He's even better at other people's jobs than they are. Need a code decription Uhura - Spock's got it. Weird alien life form Lt Exobiologist? Spock worked that out three scenes ago. Engine Imbalance Scotty? Spock will fix it. Disease ravaging the ship. Spock is immune. Aging fast? Vulcans live longer. Need I go on?

He's the worst Mary Sue everrrr and you show your prejudice by blaming Chapel for not dying.