Sela appearing in Nemesis

[tim0122]

Firstly, is there any truth to the rumor that Crosby talked with Berman about Sela being in the movie? If so, would you have liked her to have appeared?

Seems like a good idea to me and like a good way to get Crosby into the, then, last hurrah for the TNG crew. Would also seem easy to give her a small supporting role or cameo given how much Nemesis' focuses on Romulans. Maybe it could've been Sela in a modified version of the Donatra part? It's been forever since I watched Nemesis. So, maybe that wouldn't work. Other than a Sela appearance, the only way I could see of Crosby visually being in the film would be with Data or B4 bringing up the portal version of her funeral hologram.

 

[WarpTenLizard]

I'm always starved for more Sela. She may not be the best written character, but her existence is so bizarre that it's kind of an elephant in the room when she's ignored in stories that heavily deal with both Romulans and the TNG cast.

 

[Yistaan]

You probably could replace Shinzon with Sela and nothing about Nemesis would be changed, and in fact, a great deal would be improved. It's not clear why Shinzon hates the Fed, but with Sela, the Fed stopped her plot to conquer Vulcan in TNG, she gets banished to the Reman mines, and then she takes over Romulus and goes for revenge makes more sense.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Firstly, is there any truth to the rumor that Crosby talked with Berman about Sela being in the movie? If so, would you have liked her to have appeared?

AFAIK, it was John Logan that discussed why they could not include Sela, or Ambassador Spock for that matter. That is had to do with how they were using the Romulans in the film that Sela was excluded. The only other characters that were considered for NEM that did not make the cut were Seven of Nine, Leah Brahms, and maybe Robin Lefler.

Sela should have been in the movie in some capacity. She could have been given her a Janeway-like cameo talking to Shinzon, complete with promotion to admiral and showing her to be the mastermind and the one who wants to destroy Earth and the Federation. Could have even thrown in a line that they were originally aiming to use Lore through their intermediaries, but ended up having to setting for B-4 instead (B-4 ‘s original backstory included being retrieved and passed around Pakleds, Bolians, Cardassians and Talosians, so rework that line a bit instead of cutting it). Maybe add another line that she’s fallen out of favour with the House of Duras, and end the convo with Shinzon cutting ties with her and going it alone, and leave it at that.

 

[Dukhat]

Sela should have been in the movie in some capacity. She could have been given her a Janeway-like cameo talking to Shinzon, complete with promotion to admiral and showing her to be the mastermind and the one who wants to destroy Earth and the Federation. Could have even thrown in a line that they were originally aiming to use Lore through their intermediaries, but ended up having to setting for B-4 instead (B-4 ‘s original backstory included being retrieved and passed around Pakleds, Bolians, Cardassians and Talosians, so rework that line a bit instead of cutting it). Maybe add another line that she’s fallen out of favour with the House of Duras, and end the convo with Shinzon cutting ties with her and going it alone, and leave it at that.

There's a fundamental problem with having Sela as the villain as opposed to Shinzon. Sela is the daughter of alternate Tasha Yar, and in that context the audience is supposed to have at least some sympathy for her. Not so with Shinzon. Even his sob story about being sent to the mines as a kid did not resonate with the audience once they realized what a cardboard and nutty villain he was. At least with Sela, the audience would expect some sort of redemption (pardon the pun) for her, which the script simply had nothing to do with.

 

[CoveTom]

The main problem is that Sela has a complicated backstory. It's not the kind of thing that could be explained to uninitiated audiences in 30 seconds with a Khan-like speech. It requires knowing Yar's backstory, then what happened in Yesterday's Enterprise, then what happened with Sela in The Mind's Eye, Redemption, and Unification. It's... a lot. A good percentage of moviegoers probably don't even know who Yar is, let alone Sela.

They don't want the movies to require someone to have an extensive knowledge of TNG to be accessible. That is, I assume, the main reason why she was not considered to be included.

 

[Uxi]

The best part about using Sela is that her backstory is available as exposition instead of an unknown and disposable villain of the week (if not also wasting the talents of Tom Hardy, though that was hardly as well known then). It doesn't have to be thoroughly referenced any more than Khan's appearance in TOS was.

On the other hand, the callback wasn't as necessary and a cameo would have worked too like FederationHistorian mentioned.

The B-4 thing, Data aping Spock (including the Macguffin to undo his sacrifice), were also bad ideas in a movie full of them.

Biggest regret is not any of that but that they didn't have Battle Group Omega on screen getting mauled by the Scimitar.

 

[Qonundrum]

The main problem is that Sela has a complicated backstory. It's not the kind of thing that could be explained to uninitiated audiences in 30 seconds with a Khan-like speech. It requires knowing Yar's backstory, then what happened in Yesterday's Enterprise, then what happened with Sela in The Mind's Eye, Redemption, and Unification. It's... a lot. A good percentage of moviegoers probably don't even know who Yar is, let alone Sela.

They don't want the movies to require someone to have an extensive knowledge of TNG to be accessible. That is, I assume, the main reason why she was not considered to be included.

Generations required knowledge of the Duras sisters' gambit. TWOK required some knowledge of TOS (Khan) as well. Both did a good job at not going overboard in reintroducing them and, in both cases (esp. for Kirk's era), TV reruns certainly helped. (only General Chang eschewed the trend for a new baddie, unrelated to anyone prior to. that hit a home run.)

Trek was never the most popular franchise and was fan-driven. Most audiences would know, or with some deft dialogue would get a quick reminder to get back up to speed. It did peak in the 1990s, but it was never a blockbuster movie franchise. Even in the best of Kirk's era, which is TVH but that's something you couldn't keep going forever so they had to return to the basics.

AFAIK, it was John Logan that discussed why they could not include Sela, or Ambassador Spock for that matter. That is had to do with how they were using the Romulans in the film that Sela was excluded. The only other characters that were considered for NEM that did not make the cut were Seven of Nine, Leah Brahms, and maybe Robin Lefler.

Or the Romulan Commander from "The Enterprise Incident" out of the blue because reasons fanwank.

Sela should have been in the movie in some capacity. She could have been given her a Janeway-like cameo talking to Shinzon, complete with promotion to admiral and showing her to be the mastermind and the one who wants to destroy Earth and the Federation.

That alone would have helped a LOT, but nixing Shinzon would have been better.

Could have even thrown in a line that they were originally aiming to use Lore through their intermediaries, but ended up having to setting for B-4 instead (B-4 ‘s original backstory included being retrieved and passed around Pakleds, Bolians, Cardassians and Talosians, so rework that line a bit instead of cutting it). Maybe add another line that she’s fallen out of favour with the House of Duras, and end the convo with Shinzon cutting ties with her and going it alone, and leave it at that.

Going back to the article, it amounts to defining the reason as "But because of what we have to do with our featured Romulans we could not use Denise." And what did they want to do? Have some Romulans turn goody because of a baddie. Sela, if not that oversized candy bar wrapper sitting on the table, would do just fine as that catalyst. Well, Sela more so but I digress: The idea of a failed Picard clone alone is naff, never mind the transfusion treknobabble, never mind all the narrative hoops and hurdles that were far more convoluted than reintroducing a character briefly used in the TV show and Sela was memorable enough, right down to a better case for revenge against Picard. NEM is just an overloaded mess that needed far more tightening than TMP ever needed.

Either which way, shoehorning Spock in would have been a logistical nightmare, despite being integral to any peace process in "Unification". Why would Spock necessarily have the be there, anyhow? He's not the only one looking to unify and make peace and everything. Logan's spot-on with Spock not needing to be involved. The villain would have to be stronger, and Shinzon and his overstuffed background simply couldn't have been saved by anybody - indeed, Tom Hardy does a LOT with the script to try to elevate it into something better. Ignore the plotting and watch his performance, he's great. But the hoops and hurdles about being a discarded lab experiment (clone of Picard because, more reasons) thrown into a prison where he and his Reman buddies that actually cared about him (okay...) managed to build the super-dee-duperiest ship of all time, with nobody noticing any missing materials or energy emissions somewhere? With Romulus right around the corner, really? How many Romulans were quietly helping out in this caper? Apparently quite a few, except they really weren't. Tom (a saving grace for this film, IMHO) could have been better served in the movie, and the movie itself just wanted to chuck in too much unneeded character minutiae to needlessly convolute proceedings. Especially as (from recollection of a different article) the intent was to have a direct follow-up sequel, which didn't materialize because NEM bombed.

 

[Qonundrum]

The best part about using Sela is that her backstory is available as exposition instead of an unknown and disposable villain of the week

To take a disposable character as introduced and develop her into something far bigger. It worked for the Pakleds in Lower Decks, too.

(if not also wasting the talents of Tom Hardy, though that was hardly as well known then). It doesn't have to be thoroughly referenced any more than Khan's appearance in TOS was.

^^this

Shinzon's build-up was so forced and overloaded with exposition, of which too much of it doesn't and can't add up. Sela was ready-made, despite some mishandling in season 5. would have been huge.

On the other hand, the callback wasn't as necessary and a cameo would have worked too like FederationHistorian mentioned.

True...

The B-4 thing, Data aping Spock (including the Macguffin to undo his sacrifice), were also bad ideas in a movie full of them.

Thanks for the memory, LOL. How many more are there...

Including Geordi's return to ocular implants, meaning everything involved in INS was a gross miscalculation, meretricious fallacy, waste of time, etc.

Biggest regret is not any of that but that they didn't have Battle Group Omega on screen getting mauled by the Scimitar.

And, yeah, if it were a proper Romulan ship as a new top-secret plan, in a Romulan society questioning itself rather than having a nice side prison planet of poor plot props to deal with and the bucket of Reman noodles and Shinzon's pointless creation as an experiment just muddy things up so needlessly. And to compare, INS was just as awful in setting up a "get out of major plot thing free" card with the Federation regarding is it just the top brass, all of it, if only the one admiral was the rogue, etc. Very inconsistent too. all is shiny happy well in the end, and that's not referencing how Picard violated orders in the preceding flick (STFC) as a lame joke trying to parrot/parody the end of TUC when Spock says 'go to hell' regarding violating orders or whatever.

After all, if DS9 took a decisive step with the Klingon empire, how come the final two TNG flicks meandered wishy-washily with vague top brass, convoluted baddie instead of just having it be all about Romulus? (We've had lots of Romulan stories before, Remus didn't need to be shoehorned in beyond a reference for a possible sequel to play with, if need be or at all.)

 

[JamesRye]

The whole plot was nature vs nurture, so not sure how Sela would work.

 

[Dukhat]

The whole plot was nature vs nurture, so not sure how Sela would work.

Yep. The premise was 'what if Picard didn't have the life that he ended up having?' Not 'we're bringing back a poorly thought-out character because Denise Crosby wants to come back to Star Trek.'

 

[JamesRye]

Yep. The premise was 'what if Picard didn't have the life that he ended up having?' Not 'we're bringing back a poorly thought-out character because Denise Crosby wants to come back to Star Trek.'

I think that might be the reason that Nemesis doesn't work as a movie. At it's core, it is a small scale morality play - same as Insurrection. There's quite an epic sweep that should have been explored, which is Shinzon overthrowing the Empire. I'd like to have seen this played out in a more grand fashion - and it could have been the entire first half of the movie.

Then there's Shinzons seeming irrational hatred of Picard. I'd have liked it better if they'd started out with Shinzon exploiting his knowledge of Picard - understanding his motivations - like his desire for peace. It'd be great if Shinzon hadn't hated Picard from the get go. If he'd learned to hate Picard because he's the better man, rather than just because Picard got all the breaks in life.

I'd have got rid of Shinzon having the cloning sickness or whatever and have him wanting to expand the Empire that has grown stagnant.

Then a better writer could have Picard overcoming Shinzon by embracing the darkness within him, or Shinzon miscalculating because he thinks Picard will act a certain way.

I guess with the Sela thing, she could've been given Donatra's small role.

 

[Dukhat]

I think that might be the reason that Nemesis doesn't work as a movie. At it's core, it is a small scale morality play - same as Insurrection. There's quite an epic sweep that should have been explored, which is Shinzon overthrowing the Empire. I'd like to have seen this played out in a more grand fashion - and it could have been the entire first half of the movie.

Then there's Shinzons seeming irrational hatred of Picard. I'd have liked it better if they'd started out with Shinzon exploiting his knowledge of Picard - understanding his motivations - like his desire for peace. It'd be great if Shinzon hadn't hated Picard from the get go. If he'd learned to hate Picard because he's the better man, rather than just because Picard got all the breaks in life.

I'd have got rid of Shinzon having the cloning sickness or whatever and have him wanting to expand the Empire that has grown stagnant.

Then a better writer could have Picard overcoming Shinzon by embracing the darkness within him, or Shinzon miscalculating because he thinks Picard will act a certain way.

I guess with the Sela thing, she could've been given Donatra's small role.

The thing about Nemesis is that the entire film is a testament to what happens when you give two actors complete creative control over the production. The movie is about Picard and Data ONLY, and the other characters exist just to move the plot along for the two of them.

The film's premise is basically, 'Picard and Data find their twins who didn't get the breaks they did.' It's not about Romulans, or Sela, or Shinzon's ultimate motivations. Because Shinzon was just a cardboard villain whose sole reason for living was just to show Picard how great his life was. It wasn't even so much that 'Picard had a hidden dark side,' because the film utterly fails to convey this, even if that was their intention.

And, unfortunately, nobody learned their lesson about any of this, as this is all completely prevalent in ST: Picard.

 

[El Maestro]

Honestly, Sela was more of a "Nemesis" than whatever hell Tom hardy was supposed to be.

 

[Pauln6]

They probably meant they couldn't think of a way to sexually assault Troi if they used Sela. The fact that the female villain almost immediately tried to shag Shinzon to gain favour, despite that having no bearing on the story, should tell you everything you need to know about the writers' frames of mind when it comes to the female characters.

Reminds me how Yeoman Rand was sexually assaulted or sexually harassed in 3 of her 4 significant appearances, or 5 out of 6 if you take account of the fact that Mears and Ross would also have originally been intended to be Rand had the actress not been fired after being... sexually assaulted.

 

[Jeyl]

AFAIK, it was John Logan that discussed why they could not include Sela, or Ambassador Spock for that matter.

This is John's way of saying they couldn't work in Sela or Spock because that would have gotten in the way of his job of over-indulging in Brent Spiner and Patrick Stewart's shenanigans. And I love how he justifies their exclusion by stating he was trying to be elegant.

"there was just no way to make it work elegantly, so it wouldn't just seem like we were throwing Spock in there."

But that Dune Buggy sequence? THAT did work elegantly for the film and didn't feel like it was just thrown in there because Patrick loves fast driving.

ARGH!

Wonder if that was the same excuse for ignoring Picard's artificial heart. You know? That piece of tech that reflected a change in Picard's life. I think that could have been worked into the storyline elegantly to compliment the "What your life could have been" and it would actually been tangible proof! It's like if Luke told Rey that her hands are the same as his.

 

[fireproof78]

The main problem is that Sela has a complicated backstory. It's not the kind of thing that could be explained to uninitiated audiences in 30 seconds with a Khan-like speech. It requires knowing Yar's backstory, then what happened in Yesterday's Enterprise, then what happened with Sela in The Mind's Eye, Redemption, and Unification. It's... a lot. A good percentage of moviegoers probably don't even know who Yar is, let alone Sela.

They don't want the movies to require someone to have an extensive knowledge of TNG to be accessible. That is, I assume, the main reason why she was not considered to be included

But they did it with Generations and First Contact.

 

[flandry84]

Not to derail this Sela thread but all these years later and I’m still utterly baffled by the inclusion of the B4 storyline.
Completely out of ,and apparently going,nowhere.

 

[Dukhat]

Not to derail this Sela thread but all these years later and I’m still utterly baffled by the inclusion of the B4 storyline.
Completely out of ,and apparently going,nowhere.

1. Stewart and Spiner were the ones being pandered to; therefore if Stewart had a doppelganger, then Spiner needed one too.

2. B4's only reason for existing was for him to access the Enterprise's computers, and to imply that Data might have downloaded his consciousness into him at the end of the movie, thereby offering a possible way for Spiner to return in the future. Other than that, the whole concept of B4 and the circumstances as to how he was found and brought aboard the ship was utter nonsense.

 

[Yistaan]

Generations required knowledge of the Duras sisters' gambit. TWOK required some knowledge of TOS (Khan) as well. Both did a good job at not going overboard in reintroducing them and, in both cases (esp. for Kirk's era), TV reruns certainly helped. (only General Chang eschewed the trend for a new baddie, unrelated to anyone prior to. that hit a home run.)

Movies arising from tv franchises were always risky due to building off popularity of the tv show while not requiring too much info from said show to alienate the general audience. Mission Impossible handled this by turning the show protagonist into a villain and killing him off, which flew right by the general audience and angered the show fanbase, but the show fanbase was small enough that box office was not affected.

The 2 Dr. Who movies with Peter Cushing just had their movies not be connected to the show continuity at all.

Marvel's been muddying the waters with recent movies having heavy links to the Disney Plus shows. Star Wars is now stepping into it with a Mandalorian and Grogu movie next year that presumably requires at least some basic knowledge of the Star Wars show.