Which has "seniority": Commodore, Fleet Captain or Rear Admiral (LH)? I know that IRL, the rank of Commodore was done away with, and that Fleet Captain does not exist. But wouldn't Fleet Captain be the technical replacement for Commodore for Starfleet? It was certainly used during the Dominion War Arc in DS9. Side note: in TMP, Kirk should have been a Commodore, in keeping with the tradition of Commodores being "sketchy" about their actions (J/K).
Ranks in STAR TREK
- Thread starter dswynne1
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Commodore and Rear Admiral, Lower Half (which I presume is what you mean by "LH") are in fact the same rank. The Commodore rank wasn't done away with, it was simply renamed Read Admiral Lower Half. Incidentally, this only occurred in the US Navy, other navies around the world still use Commodore.
But yes, a Commodore/RALH does have seniority over a Fleet Captain, which is basically just a title for a captain with seniority when multiple captains are present.
But yes, a Commodore/RALH does have seniority over a Fleet Captain, which is basically just a title for a captain with seniority when multiple captains are present.
But the position of Commodore remains.
The title of commodore has historically been senior to any title of captain, and we know in TOS that commodore was a flag rank, like an admiral, so an educated guess would be that commodore is senior to fleet captain. Rear admiral (lower half) is a US Navy grade that has not been mentioned in Trek AFAIK, but rear admiral would be senior to commodore as it is in most English-speaking navies and as it was in the US Navy 1862-1899 and 1943-1950.
My standard contribution to this topic:
Please provide a reference to fleet captain, in ds9 or else where.
Please provide a reference to commodore after tos
Please provide a reference to "rear admiral lower half"
Please provide a reference to commodore after tos
Please provide a reference to "rear admiral lower half"
Fleet Captain Garth, from TOS "Whom Gods Destroy."
Personally, I've always placed fleet captain above captain and below commodore in TOS and that it's the rank with three full stripes as its insignia. But I never continued it past TOS though as I tend to think it was just used during that short time in Starfleet history--kind of like how the USN and USCG used the ill-fated rank of "commodore admiral" for only a short while.
That's how I've always seen the rank structure as well.
By the time of TNG it's probably more of a title than a rank, as Picard would probably be deemed the 'fleet captain' in FC during the battle with the Borg and Sisko would be one as well throughout the Dominion War, both being a senior Captain who was in command of a fleet during large-scale tactical engagements. But that's just how it works in my head.
As regards Fleet Captain, it should always be emphasized that we never saw one - and only ever heard of one, NOT TWO, in dialogue.
Garth of Izar was never indicated to have held the rank or title of Fleet Captain. Instead, twice he was said to be a starship fleet Captain, that is, a Captain in the starship fleet rather than in the Cheapest Risa Shuttles fleet. The usage was inconsistent with the way ranks or titles would be used, including the inflections used by the actors. The heroes just wanted to remind the madman of his being part of a respected and responsible elite force.
Now, Chris Pike was said to have been "promoted to fleet captain", which makes Fleet Captain a rank or a position. We never saw him in any uniform other than that associated with the rank of Lieutenant, though; we don't know if he held the status of Fleet Captain at that point ("The Cage"), or merely the position of Captain.
Now, we are likely to meet Pike again within a year. We still don't know whether this will be before or after his promotion to Fleet Captain; all we know is that it will be a few years after his last appearance wearing Lieutenant braid and commanding the Enterprise in "The Cage". And that he is once again addressed as Captain. But perhaps this will clarify the mysterious Fleet Captain business a bit.
Timo Saloniemi
Garth of Izar was never indicated to have held the rank or title of Fleet Captain. Instead, twice he was said to be a starship fleet Captain, that is, a Captain in the starship fleet rather than in the Cheapest Risa Shuttles fleet. The usage was inconsistent with the way ranks or titles would be used, including the inflections used by the actors. The heroes just wanted to remind the madman of his being part of a respected and responsible elite force.
Now, Chris Pike was said to have been "promoted to fleet captain", which makes Fleet Captain a rank or a position. We never saw him in any uniform other than that associated with the rank of Lieutenant, though; we don't know if he held the status of Fleet Captain at that point ("The Cage"), or merely the position of Captain.
Now, we are likely to meet Pike again within a year. We still don't know whether this will be before or after his promotion to Fleet Captain; all we know is that it will be a few years after his last appearance wearing Lieutenant braid and commanding the Enterprise in "The Cage". And that he is once again addressed as Captain. But perhaps this will clarify the mysterious Fleet Captain business a bit.
Timo Saloniemi
Star Trek the Motion Picture:
Epsilon 9 voice: "Signed, Commodore Probert, Starfleet."
By "after TOS" do you mean the 24th century or anything produced after TOS? If it's anything produced after TOS, than we also have Commodore Forrest from Enterprise's First Flight and Commodore Paris from Beyond.
On screen? None. It is in the Encyclopedia, for whatever that's worth.
1. Pike
2. Joshua Jae
3. Gregory Quinn (by inference, based on rank insignia compared to other Admirals)
There's also Luther Sloan with his crazy underlined Captain's insignia, whatever that means. That was in DS9.
Right. Incidentally, "The Menagerie, Part I" establishes that fleet captain is superior to captain.
I don't believe the braids were established as ranks on the crew's sleeves yet, instead it was to identify who was a commission officer or a bridge officer.
It's worth nothing. If it's not on screen then it doesn't count.
Say what? After the two pilots, the braids on the sleeves were very consistently used throughout TOS.
edit -- Sorry, I didn't see the post you were replying to, so I took your post out of context; now I have read it. You're right, the braid system in "The Cage" is different, clearly, though I'm not sure its function is to distinguish bridge officers. There's really too little information to make that conclusion, AFAIK.
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His official designation was "Director".
Deputy Director, of Starfleet Department of Internal Affairs. But that was the position he was lying about. I assume that the rank insignia denoted a rank seperate from his position. Whether that be Fleet Captain, or "Captain-equivalent" or Provisional Captain or Commodore or Colonel is up in the air.
Or maybe it's like the Black Badge, and just denotes him as a super-secret Section 31 agent to those in the know.
I doubt it would be that overt. As much as I like DISCO, I'm not a fan of the black badges because it advertises to outsiders the existence of S31 way too readily. They are a dark-ops organization for a reason. To say, "Hi, I'm from Section 31, as designated by my unique rank insignia" strains credulity when associated with any such group whose sole purpose is to operate deep in the shadows.
I suspect, like you said, it's much like the provisional rank devices used on Voyager for the Maquis personnel. They are a part of the greater rank structure when endorsed by legitimate officers in the field and hold similar authority and responsibility, yet not quite Starfleet. They either took a different kind of oath, or none at all.
I suspect, like you said, it's much like the provisional rank devices used on Voyager for the Maquis personnel. They are a part of the greater rank structure when endorsed by legitimate officers in the field and hold similar authority and responsibility, yet not quite Starfleet. They either took a different kind of oath, or none at all.
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