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O.K. - TNG, DS9, or VOY?

OldManDax

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In the past several months I have participated in or lurked on a lot of threads on the BBS that have bought into sharp focus the debate over whether TNG, the generally philosophical, more obviusly humanistic Trek, that is sometimes labeled "PC", arrogant and somewhat dated by a lot of forum members, or DS9, the grittier, more questioning and less "black and white" Trek, that is sometimes cast as "the anti-Trek" and going for a false sense of "kewlness" and "edginess", and even VOY, which some say capture the adventure, fun and attitude of Star Trek best (in spite of taking a lot of "shortcuts") better represent the ideals and general approach of Trek.

All this got me to thinking: which Trek do you all, who are presumably major fans of the original Star Trek, consider as the most faithful and true follow-up to, and respecter of both the ideas and overall thinking of your show. TNG, DS9 or VOY? And Why?

**Note: I'm not including Enterprise because there doesn't seem to be any noticeable consensus about the show, plus it's kind of has a built-in disadvantage as a prequel series.
 
Re: O.K. - TNG or DS9?

I just really don't either way.

Those shows are their own era, Star Trek is rather removed I feel.

I couldn't make a choice as all these choices are much more related to each other than Star Trek.
 
Re: O.K. - TNG or DS9?

I can't make up my mind: they all represent Star Trek to me. ST has many facets: there is no one vision of "Trekness" in my mind.
 
Re: O.K. - TNG or DS9?

To me, the represent their times.

Each show is a product of their time, the late 60s, the 80s, the 90s, and then VOY and ENT. Which I will call "the black years". :D

Kidding.

The thing about TNG, DS9, VOY, and, to everyones groaning displeasure, ENT is that they are essentially the same show. Though TNG and DS9 benefited from some creative big guns who made more than a few terrific shows, ultimately each Berman Trek show has everything to do with each other and very little to do with the original Star Trek. imho. :)
 
I feel like an emo kid for saying this, but much of "Voyager" is terrific.

Yes, some of it reminds me of taking a field trip with an A-V club from high school. Yes, Janeway's "I'm BATMAN!" voice is a bit distracting. Yes, the Doctor's singing makes me want to punch his clock.

But even with the woman with the bionic boobs, they did some terrific science fiction.

TNG bores me. DS9 is better, especially in the later years. But, pound for pound, "Voyager" interests me the most.

Joe, navel-gazer
 
Voyager is very good.

It suffered from having to come up with new Trek stories each year after TOS, TNG & DS9 had done 300 of them.

Plus the back-breaking pace of 26 per year in seasons 3-7--nobody does that any more and they did it with all the FX, sets, aliens etc.
I salute their fine efforts--even if they sometimes fell short--Same with Enterprise.
 
Much of TNG was the antithesis of Star Trek. They rarely showed conflict among the crew, alot of the stories were bland, and the Federation was just one big happy family. Roddenberry's utopian Starfleet may have been a nice place to live, but it made for boring television.

DS9 learned from those lessons, and told stories about flawed people whose ideals were challenged by the realities of war. Could the Federation hold true to its principles while the Dominion was infiltrating and invading their worlds? While it was nowhere near perfect, I think DS9 was the closet to the original concepts of Star Trek.

In general, Voyager suffered from many of the same problems as TNG. They started out with an excellent premise, but fell back into the same patterns that TNG meekly went before.
 
What I admired the most about TOS was in its "pulp sci-fi" origins. The ability to recapture the feel of "Buck Rogers" and "Flash Gordon" with social commentary. I really got the impression that the writers of TOS cared about world history, politics, sociology, and anthropology, were well-versed in classical plays and literature, as well as areas of human psychology.

Not so with the TV writers employed on Modern Trek. The only time Modern Trek even came close to what I described above was during the 1st and 2nd seasons of TNG. But, afterwards, TNG gradually declined into formulaic TV writing where most of the scripts centered around your typical "conflict resolution" type stories. The same thing with VOY. These shows just did not have much to say. Writers like Brannon Braga simply did not care about world history, politics, sociology, human development, plays, or literature. Even "Seinfeld," a show about nothing had much more to say in the areas of social commentary and interpersonal human interactions/relationships than Modern Trek ever did.

Out of the 3, I suppose my vote would have to go to DS9. The fact that it featured characters like Kira Nerys who reminded you of the freedom fighters from Nazi occupied France, as well as races like the Cardassians as an allusion to Nazi Germany, and groups like the Dominion as a force much like "The Axis of Evil" from WWII (Germany, Italy, Japan) showed that the DS9 writers at least cared about those same issues on a consistent basis as the TOS writers did. And episodes like "Past Tense, Parts I and II" showed that the writers acknowledged and cared about where our world's whole government, social, welfare system was headed, and "Far Beyond the Stars" admitted the racism of 20th century American society where writers were barred from portraying non-WASP characters in a positive light, except as negative, stereotypical caricatures of propaganda (Such as Ming the Merciless from "Flash Gordon"). Thank goodness DS9 had a producer who cared about quality and substance like Ira Behr who encouraged writers like Ronald D. Moore and Robert Wolfe not to hold back and write teleplays that pushed the envelope further.

I never saw much of that in TNG seasons 3-7 and VOY seasons 1-7. They truly looked and felt like products made and run by people who did not care in one way or another whether or not their shows had any bearing or origin to TOS, as long as they were making a hit and making a lot of money in the process.

At least on TOS, when the crew encountered a spacial anomaly, they at least tried to resolve their crises through human ingenuity and cooperation. Those scenes genuinely offered insights into the human condition within the confines of a futuristic setting. On a show like TNG and VOY, whenever the Enterprise-D or USS Voyager encountered a spacial anomaly, it was all about the technobabble solution that saves the day. And those episodes that deal with the human condition on TNG and VOY dealt with "side stories" about Data raising his cat, or Guinan's tennis wrist, or Troi's love of chocolate that had no bearing whatsoever in driving the main plot forward. What a complete waste of time and talent involved.

This is probably one of the main reasons why the TOS franchise had a wealth of material to draw from when they made their 6 feature films from 1979-1991. They had resonance with its audience. TNG, too easily caved into studio pressures when it came to producing the 4 TNG feature films. There was not one single fighter amongst the TNG production team to champion its cause, unlike TOS, because quite frankly when all things were said and done, TNG was "a hack show" that really had nothing much to say. Seriously, after 41 years of Star Trek, the only messages I seem to recall that have any practical worth and value in the real world are from TOS, early-TNG, and some episodes of DS9 during the course of its 7 seasons.

These are the reasons why I consider TOS to possess that "timeless quality" that all these other series that came afterwards never possessed in the first place. :borg:
 
DS9 is my absolute favorite of the three choices, with TNG second and VOY following up a distant and disappointing third despite the show's strong start and some very, very good episodes along the way.
 
I was wondering when one of these type threads would show up here in Fort "TOS."

My answer: Absolutely none of them. Star Trek's in its own class, apart from the others. They have more in common with each other than with Star Trek.
 
^^^

I agree. Modern Trek is what we get when they hire writers who grew up watching television as their primary source of information, as opposed to having grown up reading a lot of books on diverse subjects as well as from one's own life experiences.
 
There was only 1 TOS. Each later Trek was unique in its own way but never coming close to the original. That being said, I picked DS9. It's pilot was closer in spirit to "The Cage" of the original. The crew was interesting like the original and not the bland utopia of TNG. VOY tried with the mixing of the Feds and Maquis but gave up on it WAAAAY too early in the first season and went with the TNG approach.
 
DS9, though they all have elements of TOS, I thought DS9 had the most interesting take on it all.
 
OldManDax said:
which Trek do you all, who are presumably major fans of the original Star Trek, consider as the most faithful and true follow-up to, and respecter of both the ideas and overall thinking of your show. TNG, DS9 or VOY? And Why?

None.

Now that doesn’t mean I didn’t enjoy some of the other series, most notably TNG of which I am a big fan, but none of them capture the essence of what made TOS the great series that it was.
 
Wow. I really didn't expect that many votes for DS9, or at least not so much more than TNG. I pretty much expected TNG would run away with the poll, considering it had so many explicit similarities to Star Trek, in its premise (a Federation ship called Enterprise exploring the galaxy, with a "diverse" crew), had what many consider a Kirkish character (Riker), a Spockish character (albeit one who was more specifically enamored of humanity), and several specific allusions and follow-ups to events taking place during TOS. And of course, Gene Roddenberry was still involved in TNG, unlike DS9 AND VOY.

I suspected that VOY might come in second, because of certain aspects of its premise and execution: Janeway set-up to be something of a "female Kirk"; the presence of both a Vulcan and a "half-breed" in the main cast; and a significant, often curmudgeonly CMO character who, in spite of his often less-than-charming bedside manner, was very often the voice of McCoy-like human values.

Moreover, I thought I saw some of the use of classic TOS allegorical, theatrical and social commentary elements in episodes like "The Thaw", "Memorial","Tsunkatse", "Critical Care", and the like. And could not explicit parallels be made between the "Year of Hell" two-parter and say, "Balance of Terror"? Or "Blink of an Eye" and, well, "Wink of An Eye"?

Note that I'm not advocating for any particular series, just throwing out some thoughts.

Anyway, I'm really interested in reading you guys' comments. Please, keep 'em coming.
 
I'd pick DS9 if only because it's characters were the most relatable and human of any that we'd seen since TOS. Both shows also had the same kind of gung-ho spirit that was sorely missing in TNG and VOY.

Ultimately though, I gotta agree that TOS is it's own thing.
 
OldManDax said:
Wow. I really didn't expect that many votes for DS9, or at least not so much more than TNG. I pretty much expected TNG would run away with the poll, considering it had so many explicit similarities to Star Trek, in its premise (a Federation ship called Enterprise exploring the galaxy, with a "diverse" crew), had what many consider a Kirkish character (Riker), a Spockish character (albeit one who was more specifically enamored of humanity), and several specific allusions and follow-ups to events taking place during TOS. And of course, Gene Roddenberry was still involved in TNG, unlike DS9 AND VOY.
TNG seasons 1 and 2 still carried the spirit and style of TOS. Will Riker was still the Jim Kirk of the show. Exploring outerspace, action adventure, social commentary, and allegories were present throughout the early TNG episodes.

It is TNG seasons 3-7 and everything else that came afterwards from Rick Berman and his TV writers that I consider to be a "different animal." As for DS9, even Nana Visitor in a recent interview stated that it was Michael Piller and Ira Behr who were the ones who actually ran and contributed creatively to DS9. Not Rick Berman.

I suspected that VOY might come in second, because of certain aspects of its premise and execution: Janeway set-up to be something of a "female Kirk"; the presence of both a Vulcan and a "half-breed" in the main cast; and a significant, often curmudgeonly CMO character who, in spite of his often less-than-charming bedside manner, was very often the voice of McCoy-like human values.
Kirk's would-be-successor began and ended with Will Riker during seasons 1 and 2 of TNG. To put it kindly and euphemistically, Janeway was a psycho.

Tuvok was a good Vulcan, but he doesn't hold a candle next to Spock. Torres was well-written, but like most VOY characters, was extremely under-utilized. The EMH was just plain cranky and stopped being a hologram exploring the human condition once the writers gave him that mobile emitter. A big mistake, because that took away so many challenges you could have set up for this potentially unique character. :borg:

To put it simply, if I were to use a fictional boxing analogy, TOS is Rocky Balboa and VOY is Tommy Gunn. They may wear the same trunks, but only one of them has the support of the people as the people's true champion, while the other is just a poser. :thumbsup:

Moreover, I thought I saw some of the use of classic TOS allegorical, theatrical and social commentary elements in episodes like "The Thaw", "Memorial","Tsunkatse", "Critical Care", and the like. And could not explicit parallels be made between the "Year of Hell" two-parter and say, "Balance of Terror"? Or "Blink of an Eye" and, well, "Wink of An Eye"?
Complete hack jobs. For those fans who complained about TNG's "The Naked Now," those VOY episodes you mentioned above just added more fuel to the fire of mediocrity (unoriginality).
 
Thank you, Good Will Riker. Someone's finally hit the nail on the head.

True writers cut their teeth on the printed word, and to a lesser extent, the classically dramatized word in classical film and stage. That's the difference between today's so-called writers and those from yesteryear.
 
cooleddie74 said:
DS9 is my absolute favorite of the three choices, with TNG second and VOY following up a distant and disappointing third despite the show's strong start and some very, very good episodes along the way.

TNG is my all time favorite, I always enjoyed the great action, outstanding episodes, and I always enjoy seeing Enterprise-D in battle. :) :)
 
...DS9, the grittier, more questioning and less "black and white" Trek, that is sometimes cast as "the anti-Trek" and going for a false sense of "kewlness" and "edginess"...

If there's anything the intelligent, mature writers of DS9 would never do, it's going for a superficial sense of "cool" (which I presume "kewl" is supposed to mean, but I can't be sure.. I doubt the writers had ever heard that expression).

I can't imagine in what sense DS9 was an "anti-Trek", especially since I consider it to be the only sequel series that was run by people who cared about and believed in the original series.

The first post here characterizes each of the different series, but any of these approaches is perfectly valid... when I criticize some of the series, I have problems with the quality of the writing, not the kind of program each Trek is.

The spirit of DS9 is much more in keeping with the original. I'm guessing that big Next Gen fans think everyone should always get along onscreen, but they didn't on Next Gen. Plenty of hostiles out there in space.

the main characters upheld their high-minded principles, or tried hard when a difficult situation came along to challenge those ideals. Orig. Trek and DS9 characters struggled with their ideals... it was all too easy for Next Gen. Life will never be like that. Yet... there was good Next Gen where they wrestled with those things too... so I'm baffled.

Grown-ups wrote DS9, and they wrote it as drama, not action. And when there was an edge, it was a REAL edge, not flashy, not empty, but substantial.
 
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