O.K. - TNG, DS9, or VOY?

[UnknownSample]

Good Will, good post... and I agree, except: I'm not versed in this, but I'd say yes to ST's devotion to pulp SF, but to written SF in other words, by great authors, as opposed to the fantasy space serials you mention.

Some of Next Gen season 3 is insufferable owing to simplistic preachiness (the terrorism one or two they did come to mind), which appeared thought-provoking without actually provoking thought... but inbetween those season 3 episodes there's some of the best Trek ever done. My opinion of course, but they really did seem to care in season three, and they were pushing things farther and taking risks... culminating in the BoBW cliffhanger, which they wrote without knowing how to resolve it. That's a good decision, but trying to write part 2 frustrated and scared the hell out of them, as I understand it, and they decided not to take any further risks after that, i think.

**********

Hey, Good Will, just read your next post here, and had to come back and edit to applaud you. Well said! With every year, ST has been fighting the battle between being "science-fiction" (as in the literary genre) and "TV", starting with season two of the original, actually.

ST can't be produced by a network or by non-SF-believers. It's a rebel program that suits have to be tricked into funding and accepting, with cornball one-liners such as "wagon train to the stars", which of course it wasn't. Someone has to champion ST like Roddenberry did, and fight against resistance to have it done correctly as genuine SF, not have ST assigned to him by Paramount.

I'm wandering a little from what you posted, I guess.

 

[T'Bonz]

Another DS9 fan here. I almost liked it more than TOS over time, that is how good it was.

TOS had the edge when it came to the four. DS9 had an excellent ensemble cast and used many of them quite well. The characters were filled out and were allowed to have conflicts with one another.

TNG's biggest flaw was the "We're all a happy family." The conflict had to come from outside. It was boring at times seeing the one big happy crew.

DS9, like TOS, allowed occasional conflict between the major characters.

Voyager was, quite frankly, written erratically. The early seasons were quite good (Jetrel, etc.) and initially the ensemble case was used well, but once Seven of Nine came in, it basically became the Mary Sue of Seven of Nine show, and the only character that was used other than her was the EMH.

Plus - the show suffered from the weekly "Gilligan's Island" fault. You knew no matter what, they weren't getting off of the island this week.

And there were quite a few times when they turned Janeway, a warm maternal character, into an unlikeable bitch.

Finally, they blew a chance for great drama by wrapping up the Maquis-Federation conflict so quickly. They could have milked that for drama for a few seasons.

So pretty much, DS9 fit the bill. Even some of the extra characters (Garak for example) were extremely well-written.

So it would have to be DS9 as the true successor to TOS. That doesn't mean TNG and VOY weren't ever good, both managed to have many excellent episodes and some of the characters grew and were top-notch (Picard in TNG for example) but DS9 was consistently good.

 

[Anwar]

I understand why most people are PO'ed that they wrapped up the Maquis conflict so fast on VOY, but I really think they are overstating it by saying it should've gone on for the entire series. These people are out in the unknown, 75 years away from home and are surrounded by hostiles. In a situation like that you can't afford to be at each other's throats if you want to survive, so I don't have a problem with them deciding to work together immediately.

In nuBSG (Which I presume is that standard people are holding VOY up to) it's different. There they aren't just far from home, their home is GONE. Destroyed in nuclear hellfire and no chance of them going back, and they are driven on for a mythical world that may or may not exist, and they are constantly hounded by a foe that outclasses them militarily, and can be among them at anytime in disguise.

In THAT situation, I can somewhat more agree with people going mad and fighting amongst themselves. But it's not the same as what VOY went through.

 

[McCoy]

I can see most people have chosen DS9, but I think maybe bias may be at work here. You know, the old "Hey, a poll on the different series, where's my favourite in the list, I'm picking that one!!!"

As the show closest to the spirit and attitude of the original, DS9 is clearly a distant third. It's simply too dystopic (is that a word?).

As for which is closest to the original, that's a tough one. TNG definitely explored issues better than VOY, but VOY offered a stronger sense of being on your own in the big bad universe.

But in the end I'd have to say that TOS had an undercurrent of fun that is mostly missing from TNG, but VOY was able to get right more often.

So my choice is VOY.

By the way, my favourite series of the 3 is DS9.

 

[Anwar]

I think the word you're looking for is "dystopian".

 

[McCoy]

^ Thanks!

 

[Outpost4]

I've thought about this one a lot. I'd have to go with TNG. It's more of a process of elimination than anything else.

While ENT wasn't mentioned, and also while I liked parts of it quite a bit, it is too far removed in spirit and style to consider it "carrying the torch".

As McCoy points out above, DS9 is anti-Star Trek. It was good theater but nothing like what Gene Roddenberry envisioned.

VOY just went all too quickly to technobabble for the solution. Somebody should have remembered Kirk was famous for destroying computers, not having them save the day. Some episodes of VOY were great but otherwise we had Captain Munchkin - follow the yellow brick road - leading a band of characters written to have quirks but not personalities. The artificial lifeform, The Doctor, was the only one that had a strong and likable personality. No, not VOY. While it got the strange new worlds part of the speech down the best VOY rarely moved me.

That leaves TNG. Good old TNG. Likable, politically correct, happy-happy-joy-joy TNG. It got about half of Star Trek right. It had the strongest ensemble cast. It had the best writing. It could be clever and creative, introducing us to unforeseen enemies in the vastness of space. It was the funniest. TNG told the best morality plays and I've always thought Star Trek was at its finest when teaching a lesson. Too often it may have been bureaucratic Trek, but at its best, TNG was Star Trek.

 

[Kolrad]

This is really tough. I refuse to vote. I really think that all three of those shows, at their best, resemble the original at its best. They latch onto different ideals, but they're more alike than they are different. I do feel that DS9 has to come in last because the format of the show is the most different, even though I liked that show a lot.

Tell me, can't you hear Jean-Luc Picard saying this...

"Our missions are peaceful -- not for conquest. When we do battle, it is only because we have no choice."

"A star captain's most solemn oath is that he will give his life, even his entire crew, rather than violate the Prime Directive."

"We have found all life forms in the galaxy are capable of superior development."


... or Sisko saying this...

"We all have our darker side. We need it - it's half of what we are. It's not really ugly, it's human."

"[War] is instinctive. But the instinct can be fought. We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands! But we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers ... but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes! Knowing that we're not going to kill today!"


...or Janeway saying this...

"The more complex the mind, the greater the need for the simplicity of play."

"Sometimes a feeling is all we humans have to go on."


Maybe it's just me, but I can see the original Star Trek coming through in all of those shows.

 

[davejames]

^
Well if we're comparing dialogue, I'd DEFINITELY have to put DS9 at the top of the list. It's dialogue was easily the wittiest and most sophisticated of any of the spinoffs, and came closest to that of TOS in that it felt like it was written for adults and not just teenagers.

TNG and VOY obviously had some good one-liners here and there, but that's about it.

 

[Kolrad]

I'm not comparing dialogue, because I think the original series beats all of them rather badly if you do that.

 

[Anwar]

I think he was using that dialogue to point out that each of the spin-offs in and of themselves embody certain traits of TOS.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I like TOS and DS9 the best by far of all the Trek series. I guess that means they have something in common, but on face value they do seem pretty divergent.

 

[Good Will Riker]

^^^

In the beginning, DS9 was as far away from TOS as you can get. But, by its 3rd or 4th season, the show was swinging back TOS's way.

 

[Zeppster]

DS9 has the most errors of the 3

The last episode being one long one IMO. And the Bashir being a changling for about a season without realizing it and then coming back almost the next week to reveal he was really genetically altered. That was all writers mistakes.

The fact that DS9 is an arc based show is another reason to hate it because arc based shows are bad for the most part.

I liked the most episodes from Voyager but TNG was one that had the best written characters IMO. I like it the best.

 

[Plum]

Zeppster said:
<SNIP!!!>
I liked the most episodes from Voyager but TNG was one that had the best written characters IMO. I like it the best.

And that character is??? I'm teasing.

OK it's Picard. He's the only fleshed out character on TNG so it's gotta be him. And he was terrific. The rest of the show, aside from Woof and Data, could have been snappier.

 

[Anwar]

Zeppster said:
DS9 has the most errors of the 3

The last episode being one long one IMO. And the Bashir being a changling for about a season without realizing it and then coming back almost the next week to reveal he was really genetically altered. That was all writers mistakes.

The fact that DS9 is an arc based show is another reason to hate it because arc based shows are bad for the most part.

I liked the most episodes from Voyager but TNG was one that had the best written characters IMO. I like it the best.

Bashir had been replaced by a Changling only a few episodes before it was revelaed that he had, not half the season. And the genetially altered thing may have been made up but it did fit and explained a bit of his arrogant attitude.

 

[Keith1701]

Re: O.K. - TNG or DS9?

Plum said:
To me, the represent their times.

Each show is a product of their time, the late 60s, the 80s, the 90s, and then VOY and ENT.

The thing about TNG, DS9, VOY, and, to everyones groaning displeasure, ENT is that they are essentially the same show. Though TNG and DS9 benefited from some creative big guns who made more than a few terrific shows, ultimately each Berman Trek show has everything to do with each other and very little to do with the original Star Trek. imho.

I still think TNG was the best!!!

 

[Holytomato]

"The fact that DS9 is an arc based show is another reason to hate it because arc based shows are bad for the most part."

That's what made DS9 great. Arcs allow you to flesh out the characters. That's what novels do.

Since arcs suck, novels must suck too.

 

[Jack Bauer]

Zeppster said:The fact that DS9 is an arc based show is another reason to hate it because arc based shows are bad for the most part.

Shows made up of standalone episodes are bad for the most part as well. Standalone or arc based isn't a bearing on quality. It's the writing, acting, directing, music, production values, etc. that makes a show good not if it's arc or standalone based.

 

[SpockG60]

DS9 is far and away my favorite of the "NextGen" shows. Not really sure why though... perhaps it was because DS9 didn't rely on those cookie-cutter "problem solving, technobabble filled solution" type episodes that I felt TNG and VOY always got wrapped up in.

If this makes any sense, I feel as though TNG and VOY were always trying to keep us grounded with a sense of scientific reality with all that technobabble crap whereas DS9 still dared to delve into science FICTION just as TOS did.