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Let He Who Is Without Sin...

AntonyF

Official Tahmoh Taster
Rear Admiral
Of all the episodes in my rewatch I'm going to start a thread on this one? Why, yes I am.

I think it was largely considered a mess in the day, and largely still is. But this one I felt a bit more compelled to right about as amongst it is some potentially good narrative here that they miss the mark on.

Firstly the 'protestors', which now as an adult I recognise as the evangelical right of America (although certainly not limited to them). This alone in Trek is quite odd as it's people trying to inject their views on other people which really we'd not seen in Trek to date. It's a bit of a shock.

I am inclined to not like them for that reason, and they have echos of right-wing nutters like Liz Truss who also see the decadence as a problem of the west and ultimately leading to our collapse...

All that aside, I still kind of thought... maybe that have a bit of a point? You're in a war or two and you've basically got a planet of sex workers, which is their right in a free universe but it is quite anti-Trek. Would someone want to be a sex worker if they could... fly a space ship for example? I'm just not sure they would. That's probably a topic that's bigger than my post as I'll start analysing Risa. It is also ironic that in this episode was the one where Dax is laughing at chewing up medical time because of her sexual exploits. I mean, is that ethnical to keep on going to go into sick bay as you are getting your rocks off?

Anyway, I may sound puritanical if I go down that rabbit hole... but what I'm trying to say I think at the core there is something they could have explored better? That the Federation basically got lazy and has become about pleasure rather advancement? I don't have the answer, I just felt it could be explored more.

The bigger wasted opportunity I think was Worf. Here they had to have some neat, trite reason for him to be dour. That every way we are must have a clear reason, an event... But I think a more interesting angle - that also could have tied better into the main narrative - was what if he was conforming? That the Federation is largely human, largely American humans.. and from growing up with humans to then working with so many he felt he had to comply? There are numerous examples of this at various points: upset over him wanting suicide and trying to commit it, pushback against 'jewellery' (although somehow Worf had no issues with the sash), the disdain around Nog joining Starfleet, that on the Enterprise it's always Earth books, Earth music etc... where's the multi-culturism?

I think there would have been a compelling story about Federation may be many worlds, but Starfleet doesn't' always reflect that... and Worf needed to 'fit in' as if he went full Klingon he'd have put off his colleagues who found him too rowdy/uncouth/ebullient take your pick.

I think this stands out to me as I grew to like DS9 more back in the day, and today I consider it superior to TNG in mosty ways (as much as I have a spot spot for TNG as my first Trek). DS9 proved to be more complicated, more of a melting pot of people and ideas. I also think that's why he sticks out at first, Worf ultimately becomes a better character in DS9 than TNG.
 
I find the idea that one "side" basically thinks they get to decide how others should spend their free time infuriating.

Fullerton wants to control others, to make them conform to his view on what is "morally correct". He complains about people not doing hard work and refers to relaxation as "childish". Fuck him. He's basically Alixus mkII.

...And fuck Worf too. Obviously. ;)
 
Of all the episodes in my rewatch I'm going to start a thread on this one? Why, yes I am.

I think it was largely considered a mess in the day, and largely still is. But this one I felt a bit more compelled to right about as amongst it is some potentially good narrative here that they miss the mark on.

Firstly the 'protestors', which now as an adult I recognise as the evangelical right of America (although certainly not limited to them). This alone in Trek is quite odd as it's people trying to inject their views on other people which really we'd not seen in Trek to date. It's a bit of a shock.

I am inclined to not like them for that reason, and they have echos of right-wing nutters like Liz Truss who also see the decadence as a problem of the west and ultimately leading to our collapse...

All that aside, I still kind of thought... maybe that have a bit of a point? You're in a war or two and you've basically got a planet of sex workers, which is their right in a free universe but it is quite anti-Trek. Would someone want to be a sex worker if they could... fly a space ship for example? I'm just not sure they would. That's probably a topic that's bigger than my post as I'll start analysing Risa. It is also ironic that in this episode was the one where Dax is laughing at chewing up medical time because of her sexual exploits. I mean, is that ethnical to keep on going to go into sick bay as you are getting your rocks off?

Anyway, I may sound puritanical if I go down that rabbit hole... but what I'm trying to say I think at the core there is something they could have explored better? That the Federation basically got lazy and has become about pleasure rather advancement? I don't have the answer, I just felt it could be explored more.

The bigger wasted opportunity I think was Worf. Here they had to have some neat, trite reason for him to be dour. That every way we are must have a clear reason, an event... But I think a more interesting angle - that also could have tied better into the main narrative - was what if he was conforming? That the Federation is largely human, largely American humans.. and from growing up with humans to then working with so many he felt he had to comply? There are numerous examples of this at various points: upset over him wanting suicide and trying to commit it, pushback against 'jewellery' (although somehow Worf had no issues with the sash), the disdain around Nog joining Starfleet, that on the Enterprise it's always Earth books, Earth music etc... where's the multi-culturism?

I think there would have been a compelling story about Federation may be many worlds, but Starfleet doesn't' always reflect that... and Worf needed to 'fit in' as if he went full Klingon he'd have put off his colleagues who found him too rowdy/uncouth/ebullient take your pick.

I think this stands out to me as I grew to like DS9 more back in the day, and today I consider it superior to TNG in mosty ways (as much as I have a spot spot for TNG as my first Trek). DS9 proved to be more complicated, more of a melting pot of people and ideas. I also think that's why he sticks out at first, Worf ultimately becomes a better character in DS9 than TNG.
I would suggest that, yes, there are people who would freely choose to do sex work over flying spacecraft if they could really do both. But, there might be the question of opportunity. Why do people on real-life Earth do sex work rather than fly military aircraft?

Of course, the real-world reason why everything is about Earth culture is because the show was made for human Americans in the 20th Century. It may be that elements of other cultures are prevalent on the in-universe station and we're just not seeing it. Or, if indeed 20th Century Earth culture really is more prominent that other cultures, it would be an interesting story as to why that is the case.
 
Why does Pa Sisko boil up some shrimp for gratis when a Replicator can produce such fare?
Because he likes to cook? Because he believes non-replicated food tastes better than replicated food? Because he likes to customize his food in ways replicators can't easily replicate?
 
I know I think it was Ira or one of the producers thought replicators were a travesty, that people weren't cooking and spending a meal together. I think I agree! Although I did think way too much about the economics of a restaurant when watching Paradise Lost recently. Like you do it all for free? But you'd have way too many people wanting to attend. Is it a ticket lottery? And you may do it for free but where do you get all the supplies? Are they replicated, or there's people going killing fish for free?

Best not unpick this one, I think... :lol:
 
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I find the idea that one "side" basically thinks they get to decide how others should spend their free time infuriating.

I think this is where my brain is stuck between TNG and DS9. I grew up with TNG and its image of everything being perfect is one I liked.

But DS9 is more realistic. And to think that of hundreds of worlds there's not one group of people who think against Federation-groupthink is unlikely.

But I don't want puritanical groups to exist in the future like that. So I want TNG. But also I want the bars and the life of DS9, I don't want a future where I'm drinking fake booze and a poetry recital is my future... 😅
 
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Oh and I forgot to say: Worf committed a terrorist act on a Federation weather system... and not an eye lid is batted!

Worf did not commit a terrorist act. His actions were inconvenient, but did no actual harm. Certainly he could have faced charges, but something far more minor.

Fullerton, on the other hand, attempted to use the seismic regulators to destroy much of Risa's infrastructure, which could have killed people. That WAS terrorism. And I think that even the chilled-out Risians might have been willing to prosecute that.

I find the idea that one "side" basically thinks they get to decide how others should spend their free time infuriating.

I found it pretty amusing. Maybe that's because I've experienced actual fire and brimstone sermons, and Fullerton's threats weren't that scary by comparison.

I would suggest that, yes, there are people who would freely choose to do sex work over flying spacecraft if they could really do both. But, there might be the question of opportunity. Why do people on real-life Earth do sex work rather than fly military aircraft?

Remember that in Risian culture, sex work is legal, forbids slavery, and has few taboos. Maybe some people really do enjoy it.

The bigger wasted opportunity I think was Worf. Here they had to have some neat, trite reason for him to be dour.

Well, sometimes a single incident can have that effect, especially if death is involved. It's still my head canon that after the death of those kids in "Sanctuary", an event he had a part in, Nog began to seriously rethink his life. That's part of why he joined Starfleet.
 
I found it pretty amusing. Maybe that's because I've experienced actual fire and brimstone sermons, and Fullerton's threats weren't that scary by comparison.
It's not the words in the episode that I find particularly infuriating, it's the thought behind them. Just as with real-world examples.
 
Is it actual sex work, or do the Risians just really love sex? Will they not have food or a roof over their heads if they decide not to have sex with offworlders?
 
Worf did not commit a terrorist act. His actions were inconvenient, but did no actual harm. Certainly he could have faced charges, but something far more minor.

Terrorism: "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."

He attacked civilian infrastructure to intimidate people and make a political statement. You say potato, I say potato...
 
The only thing he hit them with was bad weather. That's not violence. Therefore, it is not terrorism. Worf is a warrior, not a murderer.

It was Fullerton who disabled the seismic regulators and caused the earthquakes. He should spend the next half century or so delivering his sermons to a captive audience in New Zealand. Unless one of them gets sick of it and he's found in the prison shower with a self sealing stem bolt buried in his head.
 
It was Fullerton who disabled the seismic regulators and caused the earthquakes. He should spend the next half century or so delivering his sermons to a captive audience in New Zealand.
And it was Worf who came up with the plan and set phase one into motion. If Fullerton is guilty, Worf is culpable.

Fullerton tells Worf flat out that his intention is to shut down Risa's "self indulgence".
Worf starts reading Fullerton's propaganda and encourages Dax to also do so.
Fullerton and co. fake a violent attack.
Worf goes to Fullerton with a plan to force people to leave, and deactivates the weather control system. After which, Fullerton gets to making some risaquakes.
 
So he only aided and abetted terrorists? That's okay then. :)

Worf sabotaged technology specifically in order to intimidate civilians. Ya boiz a part-time terrorist!
 
That seems like a really broad definition of terrorism. Provoking terror, or great well-founded fear, should be part of the definition. I'm not sure rain counts, even on Risa.
 
Maybe. But Worf willfully and knowingly works with people who have political motivations to try to drive people from where they want to be.

Did Worf specifically perform an act of terrorism? Eh....mmmmaybe?
Did Worf work with terrorists knowing full well what their goals were? Yes.

Is someone who helps terrorists be terrorists also one?
 
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