Garak vs. Obrien, who is Bashirs best friend?

[BohandiAnsoid]

I am not sure, but we should consider that many friendships in star Trek, espeically between men and women, actually had some lust/romantic love from at least one side. Examples include Julian -> Jadzia, Harry Kim -> Seven of Nine, Picard -> Crusher and Archer -> T'Pol.

Also, what is hilarous is that, if you assume that Garak has one sided love/lust for Bashir, then we have one big chain of one sided love/lusts: Ziyal to Garak, Garak to Bashir, Bashir to Jadzia Dax, Jadzia Dax to Sisko.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Serious question: Is a friendship true and pure if one person in it (Garak) is actually lusting for the other? Does it make it dishonest? Or do you think he came to accept it was to be in the Prime universe and was happy?

I'm sure that Garak would have realized after Our Man Bashir that he had been friend-zoned.

 

[Victoria]

I think I'd see Garak as that friend who is fun and has some particular intellectual interests in common with you - but who you know you cannot trust any further than you could throw them. They are not someone to whom you would go with a personal problem and there's always a feeling that you have to be slightly guarded. O'Brien, on the other hand, is fun in a different way, is trustworthy and is someone with whom you can relax.

 

[Lady Mondegreen]

Serious question: Is a friendship true and pure if one person in it (Garak) is actually lusting for the other? Does it make it dishonest? Or do you think he came to accept it was to be in the Prime universe and was happy?

I don't think romantic or sexual feelings on one side automatically make a relationship untrue or impure -- I think even if Garak would like more than friendship with Bashir he clearly also genuinely cares for him as a friend.

 

[kkt]

I am not sure, but we should consider that many friendships in star Trek, espeically between men and women, actually had some lust/romantic love from at least one side. Examples include Julian -> Jadzia, Harry Kim -> Seven of Nine, Picard -> Crusher and Archer -> T'Pol.

Also, what is hilarous is that, if you assume that Garak has one sided love/lust for Bashir, then we have one big chain of one sided love/lusts: Ziyal to Garak, Garak to Bashir, Bashir to Jadzia Dax, Jadzia Dax to Sisko.

That's an interesting idea, but I don't think there was attraction on either side between Jadzia Dax and Sisko.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

I don't think romantic or sexual feelings on one side automatically make a relationship untrue or impure -- I think even if Garak would like more than friendship with Bashir he clearly also genuinely cares for him as a friend.

Also, the Odo/Kira (originally unreturned), as well as Bashir/Dax - yes they ended up as strictly friends, means those are unpure. But then there is those that become biased when its male/male friendships vs. male/female. But... I guess ymmv. Glad you are not signaling out the guys. Also, other post, I am also not thinking the romance has anything to do with friendship as that just came into it because of the Robinsons comments. Nor do they need to be friends for me or the other. I can take them both ways. But ultimately as I said Obrien is his best friend. Garak was just his first.

Other poster. Did not know that Dax had anything for Sisko. Know they had something in an AU.

Don't really agree with posters that Garak is so morally ambiguous that he can't be a good friend, like he did help him through his addiction while others would not care. I think Garak knew this. But I think his first duty is to his countrymen. He seems to have been very brainwashed. To the point where he was going to blow up the planet that Bashir was on for the greater good. But Bashirs duty to sf puts him at similar odds. So that might get in the way. Not sure he would care about the genetically enhanced as that seems to be more of a SF prejudice. O'brien was just the exception. O'Brien just happened to get further than him. Still think it's because some prejudiced people just saw between the lines. As he was written later O'brien was definitely shown to care about him more. Though, Garak granted him that he was indeed a good friend in the end.

 

[fireproof78]

This should never became it at all. It all was because someone chimed in that Garak was obviously Bashirs lover and Miles was his best friend. I chimed in and it led to a debate about ficcers and then I provided that technically it was actually partly canon because of the actors with links.

Become what? I tried to follow the sentence, but I honestly don't.

I was simply opining that I don't think romance is done very well in Trek, save for things like Paris/Torres, or Stamets/Culber, and even then that's hit and miss. Even if there is intent behind the actors, I still don't think it was done well nor enough for me to go, "Boy, I sure hope they end up together."

I don't have that feeling.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Become what? I tried to follow the sentence, but I honestly don't.

I was simply opining that I don't think romance is done very well in Trek, save for things like Paris/Torres, or Stamets/Culber, and even then that's hit and miss. Even if there is intent behind the actors, I still don't think it was done well nor enough for me to go, "Boy, I sure hope they end up together."

I don't have that feeling.

Sorry, I was talking about the thread in general and others in it.

 

[Michael]

Romantic relationships, either implied or actual, are not Trek's strong suit.

As for relations, the Trek writers are actually miserable with that. Almos all relationships we have seen seem stale, forced or unrealistic.

Really?! I thought especially Keiko and Miles O’Brien as well as Kasidy Yates and Ben Sisko on Deep Space Nine and B’Elanna Torres and Tom Paris on Voyager were really well written and portrayed in a realistic way. Personally I’m also very much partial to Kira and Odo, even though they didn’t give that relationship much longevity. On the newer shows Hugh Culber and Paul Stamets on Discovery struck me as a very good representation of a realistic romantic relationship.

What is it you guys thought was weak, stale, forced or unrealistic about those specific relationships?

 

[Lady Mondegreen]

I think the romances-of-the-week on Trek shows tend to be pretty bad but that's true of pretty much any episodic show. I think Sisko & Yates, Miles & Keiko, and Worf & Jadzia are pretty well-done romantic relationships, and even some of the other prominent ones that I don't care for as much (like Odo & Kira) I don't think are egregiously terrible.

 

[fireproof78]

Really?! I thought especially Keiko and Miles O’Brien as well as Kasidy Yates and Ben Sisko on Deep Space Nine and B’Elanna Torres and Tom Paris on Voyager were really well written and portrayed in a realistic way. Personally I’m also very much partial to Kira and Odo, even though they didn’t give that relationship much longevity. On the newer shows Hugh Culber and Paul Stamets on Discovery struck me as a very good representation of a realistic romantic relationship.

What is it you guys thought was weak, stale, forced or unrealistic about those specific relationships?

I did say in another post that I liked Paris/Torres and Stamets/Culber.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

I also like Paris/Torres a lot from what little I saw of them when I tuned in on occasion. Great chemistry. Was trying to get into the whole series more recently but they took it off of Netflix when I was just done watching episode three. Never liked Dax/Worf and found it forced and felt they had little chemistry, imo. I think he had better chemistry with Deanna quite frankly even if Sirtis did not like it. I don't ship them just my observation. I think Riker/Troi finally consummating things is good. Back to Worf and Dax, the whole warrior woman thing and being the perfect woman for Worf and seemed too obvious to me.

 

[Lynx]

Really?! I thought especially Keiko and Miles O’Brien as well as Kasidy Yates and Ben Sisko on Deep Space Nine and B’Elanna Torres and Tom Paris on Voyager were really well written and portrayed in a realistic way. Personally I’m also very much partial to Kira and Odo, even though they didn’t give that relationship much longevity. On the newer shows Hugh Culber and Paul Stamets on Discovery struck me as a very good representation of a realistic romantic relationship.

What is it you guys thought was weak, stale, forced or unrealistic about those specific relationships?

I have to agree with you when it comes to the relationships that you mention here.

Miles-Keiko and ben-Kasidy were good written relationships. A pity that they messed up Ben-Kasidy with that scenario at the end where Sisko leaves to become a wormhole alien. But I suppose that he came back after a year or so.

Tom-B'Elanna was OK but not that much chemistry.

As for DSC, I gave up on that series after about six episodes, I just couldn't stand the Ninja Mutant "Klingon" Turtles and the main characters were all boring.

As for bad written relationships, I must mention Chakotay-Seven as the most obvious. Kes-neelix should havwe been broken up in season 2 but they just let it hang along until season 3 when they broke it up in a very bad written way.

Picard-Crusher wasn't that bad as such but was written quite stale by those in charge. Worf-Troi was a disaster as were most of Troi's relationships, maybe with the exception for the one with Riker.

Worf-Jadzia was quite OK but also a bit stale due to bad writing. Nog-Leeta was a bit odd but good in the long run. A relationship which could have been great was Garak-Ziyal but it was ruined by Ziyal's death.

The problem with most of those relationships aren't the characters themselves but the stale writing when it comes to those relationships.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

Star Trek wasn't that bad with the relationships. We had Keiko/Miles, Tom/B'Elanna, Odo/Kira... Even Rom/Leeta wasn't that bad. Compare it to Star Wars and especially Disney Star Wars and it seems a lot of good relationships...

 

[TheSeeker]

Just some food for thought of the whole "controversial" idea: Even on this board posting slash fic appears to be banned IIRC. A Garak/Bashir fic would therefore not be allowed here. That should give an indication of how this whole idea is indeed STILL a controversial subject in quite a few places. Including here.

I just wanted to jump in here with a correction.

There is no such prohibition on the board. Members are more than welcome to submit stories of a romantic nature involving same sex couples. They are just subject to the same rules as any other story. No explicit content. That's it.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The O'Briens and Dax/Worf were great relationships, but they weren't always front and center. Given Rosalind Chao's unwillingness to commit (I believe that early on attempts were made to make her a regular), that marriage was more often a detail about the Chief rather than something played put. We only got two years of Dax and Worf, less than one of them actually being married. It's only with Culber and Stamets, five decades into the franchise, that there is a full view of a marriage. Those don't balance out the one night stands, thr speeches about how career made marriage impossible (bullshit!), returning jilted lovers from the distant past, etc. Even in the pilot, the hero fantasizes about dealing in sex slaves. I think that Star Trek still has a long way to go to mend this part of its repuation.

 

[BohandiAnsoid]

You're right, but I still consider that better than how Disney Star Wars handle (romantic) relationships.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

I just wanted to jump in here with a correction.

There is no such prohibition on the board. Members are more welcome to submit stories of a romantic nature involving same sex couples. They are just subject to the same rules as any other story. No explicit content. That's it.

Thank you for clarifying. It's good to know that slash is allowed here. I'll consider posting some of my fic, then (not the explicit stuff, obviously).

 

[fireproof78]

Really?! I thought especially Keiko and Miles O’Brien as well as Kasidy Yates and Ben Sisko on Deep Space Nine and B’Elanna Torres and Tom Paris on Voyager were really well written and portrayed in a realistic way. Personally I’m also very much partial to Kira and Odo, even though they didn’t give that relationship much longevity. On the newer shows Hugh Culber and Paul Stamets on Discovery struck me as a very good representation of a realistic romantic relationship.

What is it you guys thought was weak, stale, forced or unrealistic about those specific relationships?

I didn't like Sisko and Yates because it always felt tacked on. Now, granted there was a lot going on with the subplots in the war but it was a sense of, "oh yeah, Sisko's relationship." So, maybe it's less how the relationship was acted out and more how it was set in the story.

The O'briens wee just victims of poor writing. A lot of fear, struggle over kids, weird anomalies, and then arguments over living in the station. Again, just odd.

Those don't balance out the one night stands, thr speeches about how career made marriage impossible (bullshit!), returning jilted lovers from the distant past, etc. Even in the pilot, the hero fantasizes about dealing in sex slaves. I think that Star Trek still has a long way to go to mend this part of its repuation.

Agreed and it's still frustrating because for the few stable relationships, we get the one nights, the tension of "will they/won't they?" in the newer shows as well.

Just not great in my opinion.

 

[at Quark's]

I wouldn't say Garak is a 'friend' in the real sense of the word. Being able to trust someone would be a basic requirement for friendship.

At best, I'd they're on friendly terms, there's some mutual appreciation and shared interests.