Kirk's rank

[Newt]

Greetings all. Was re-waching Star Trek '09 and I do enjoy the movie as a light version of Star Trek for the masses.
I have had some niggles with certain aspects with these films, one of them is Kirk's rank. Going from cadet to captain is a bit of stretch.
Ive heard theories over the years that Kirk actually held the rank of Lieutenant much like Saavik did in TWOK and was undergoing command training at Starfleet academy. But that theory is not really clear and is often referenced as a cadet.
Anyone have any insight on this?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Being a genius, he was probably in the AP classes/an accelerated program of the Academy, which would give him a guaranteed rank.

I'm kind of interested in knowing how skipping his tenure as an instructor at the Academy (unlike Prime Universe Kirk, the stack of books with legs who made his students think) affected Kelvin Kirk. Unless that's what he did while recuperating from his death in STID.

 

[David cgc]

Ive heard theories over the years that Kirk actually held the rank of Lieutenant much like Saavik did in TWOK and was undergoing command training at Starfleet academy. But that theory is not really clear and is often referenced as a cadet.
Anyone have any insight on this?

There's a computer screen that identifies him as "Lt. Kirk." I thought it was during the skydiving sequence, but I didn't find it there.

 

[Newt]

There's a computer screen that identifies him as "Lt. Kirk." I thought it was during the skydiving sequence, but I didn't find it there.

Yeah I saw that after doing some research in google.

I'm certainly no expert in military organisations just know what ive seen in movies say like the top gun films when we see qualified officers return from their post for further training.
Guessing Starfleet recall personal for training too.

Being a genius, he was probably in the AP classes/an accelerated program of the Academy, which would give him a guaranteed rank.

Yeah that kinda makes sense.

 

[fireproof78]

Greetings all. Was re-waching Star Trek '09 and I do enjoy the movie as a light version of Star Trek for the masses.
I have had some niggles with certain aspects with these films, one of them is Kirk's rank. Going from cadet to captain is a bit of stretch.
Ive heard theories over the years that Kirk actually held the rank of Lieutenant much like Saavik did in TWOK and was undergoing command training at Starfleet academy. But that theory is not really clear and is often referenced as a cadet.
Anyone have any insight on this?

A computer display shows him as rank of lieutenant, which is consistent with Saavik's rank insignia in TWOK and the fact that she is a full lieutenant in TSFS.

Uhura is also referred to as lieutenant, even while dressed as a cadet.

So my basic assumption is that Kirk is a lieutenant, possibly in the Command school. So, he starts as a lieutenant when he arrives in the Enterprise.

Then, he gets inserted in to the chain of command by Pike at the position of executive officer. Once Spock steps down Kirk steps in to the role of Captain per the chain of command.

He is then graduated from the Academy and promoted from lieutenant to Captain.

Unusual? Yes, I would say so. But given the loss of 6 ships with all hands, including cadets, and the recommendation of Captain Pike probably pushed it forward.

 

[M'Sharak]

Anyone have any insight on this?

There must have been at least one million seven hundred seventy one thousand five hundred sixty one posts' worth of insight since the movie was released -- in this forum alone.

However...

A computer display shows him as rank of lieutenant, which is consistent with Saavik's rank insignia in TWOK and the fact that she is a full lieutenant in TSFS.

Uhura is also referred to as lieutenant, even while dressed as a cadet.

So my basic assumption is that Kirk is a lieutenant, possibly in the Command school. So, he starts as a lieutenant when he arrives in the Enterprise.

When Kirk and Uhura first barged onto the bridge, both were referred to and addressed as "Cadet". I believe it's at the point where:

A) Uhura demonstrated familiarity with multiple Romulan dialects and was assigned to relieve the communications lieutenant on duty
B) Kirk was assigned to accompany Pike, Sulu and Olson on the shuttle bound for Narada and designated First Officer​

that each were assigned ranks. If they fill a spot on a duty roster, they must have ranks commensurate with those assignments.

 

[Newt]

There must have been at least one million seven hundred seventy one thousand five hundred sixty one posts' worth of insight since the movie was released -- in this forum alone.

Sorry I've been on a leave of absence lol Had 15 years of not posting and eager to start up new conversations.

When Kirk and Uhura first barged onto the bridge, both were referred to and addressed as "Cadet". I believe it's at the point where:
A) Uhura demonstrated familiarity with multiple Romulan dialects and was assigned to relieve the communications lieutenant on duty
B) Kirk was assigned to accompany Pike, Sulu and Olson on the shuttle bound for Narada and designated First Officerthat each were assigned ranks. If they fill a spot on a duty roster, they must have ranks commensurate with those assignments.

Sounds probable. Both could of had battlefield promotions to Lieutenant, especially Kirk as Pike wanted him to back Spock up as his number one.

 

[F. King Daniel]

"I gave you my ship because I saw greatness in you" is what Pike says in Into Darkness. I like to think Old Spock's future knowledge and influence had something to do with it. They tried to bust him all the way back to the academy (with reduced rank to commander) in that movie, but it was derailed by Khan.

It's utterly daft, but then Discovery did the similar with Tilly for a bit, and the end of Lower Decks did that kind of thing again. And then there's the Prodigy ending.

Also "lieutenant" is a rank, "cadet" is a status. You can be both.

 

[Ovation]

"I gave you my ship because I saw greatness in you" is what Pike says in Into Darkness. I like to think Old Spock's future knowledge and influence had something to do with it. They tried to bust him all the way back to the academy (with reduced rank to commander) in that movie, but it was derailed by Khan.

It's utterly daft, but then Discovery did the similar with Tilly for a bit, and the end of Lower Decks did that kind of thing again. And then there's the Prodigy ending.

Also "lieutenant" is a rank, "cadet" is a status. You can be both.

For that matter, captain is both a rank and a position (I.e. one can be captain of a vessel without holding the rank of captain).

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

There's a computer screen that identifies him as "Lt. Kirk." I thought it was during the skydiving sequence, but I didn't find it there.

If you're still wondering, you got this 100% correct.

It's on the transporter console screen as Chekov is locking on.

 

[David cgc]

If you're still wondering, you got this 100% correct.

It's on the transporter console screen as Chekov is locking on.

Ah, I was looking for a close-up on the bridge viewscreen when they were first falling.

 

[Newt]

Also "lieutenant" is a rank, "cadet" is a status. You can be both.

Interesting. Is that a real world thing in the navy?

 

[C.E. Evans]

One way to reconcile the whole lieutenant/cadet thing in Star Trek '09 is if we go with the idea that "lieutenant" is both a rank and a position in this version of Starfleet, and might be used to describe any junior officer regardless of their actual rank. Kirk and Uhura may very well still be technically cadets but they were serving as lieutenants on the the Enterprise and were listed as such in the ship's computer. Pike, on the other hand, knew they were still cadets.

Just a theory...

 

[Newt]

One way to reconcile the whole lieutenant/cadet thing in Star Trek '09 is if we go with the idea that "lieutenant" is both a rank and a position in this version of Starfleet, and might be used to describe any junior officer regardless of their actual rank. Kirk and Uhura may very well still be technically cadets but they were serving as lieutenants on the the Enterprise and were listed as such in the ship's computer. Pike, on the other hand, knew they were still cadets.

Just a theory...

Ah another interesting theory.
Almost like Wesley Crusher was an acting ensign in TNG.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Giving them the provisional rank also bypasses granting an individual access to certain features manually one by one. A lieutenant automatically gets the computer/security/information access Kirk would need to fulfill his tasks. Just "demote" him later to lock him out again. It'll be reflected in the records as a shortcut and won't affect his record.

I think we can trust Jim not to abuse his temporary power for stupid reasons - he's far too busy to take a second to snoop around in the computer files for something he doesn't need to know to save the ship.

 

[UssGlenn]

If you're still wondering, you got this 100% correct.

It's on the transporter console screen as Chekov is locking on.

Sulu is noted as a Lt. there as well.

 

[fireproof78]

Sulu is noted as a Lt. there as well.

Also addressed as Lieutenant by Pike.

 

[David cgc]

Sulu is noted as a Lt. there as well.

We only see Kirk, McCoy, and Uhura as current cadets. Chekov and Sulu may have already graduated and been commissioned, as was the case with Spock and Scotty.

 

[BillJ]

I seriously need to rewatch these films.

 

[Frontis]

Well just in the Kelvin timeline Kirk was rising very fast, in the original timeline we actually don't know...