• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Gravity plating on ships

Thanks.

This tractor beam gravity generation theory also applies to the S.S. Birdseye cryogenic storage vessel from the year 1994 ("The Neutral Zone(TNG)"). A ship even older than the Botany Bay isn't likely to have any sort of crude gravity plating and that craft was little more than a big refrigeration case with solar panels. But when Data and Worf beam aboard they're both walking in a normal gravity environment.
Maybe it had a more "Primitive" gravity unit where it was a single unit at the bottom of the vessel that created the large Gravity field for the entire vessel,

Just like @Christopher Posited.

It's Gravity field isn't particularly even, it has gradients, some parts of the ship has less gravity then the other.

But it's functional, and at the end of the day, it's better than Centripetal Artificial Gravity.
 
If we take TAS not only as canon (I do) but also as in continuity (which I mostly do), then the origin of artificial gravity is stated to be "a flying belt [found in a stasis box] which was the key to the artificial gravity field used by starships" ["The Slaver Weapon"]. No date is given for this discovery, so even 20th century is conceivable.

From the Memory Beta article about the Botany Bay:

The nuclear-powered ship was developed under top secret conditions by the United States of America in the 1990s. It was named after an Australian penal colony. The technology was taken in part from the Ferengi shuttle that belonged to Quark, after it had traveled back in time and crashed on Earth in 1947. Some technology, such as the specifications for the impulse engines, were provided by Gary Seven and Roberta Lincoln. (TOS novel: The Rise and Fall of Khan Noonien Singh, Volume 2, ST website: StarTrek.com)​

Technology from the future, from Gary Seven, or from both are possible and interesting explanations for how the Botany Bay seems to have advanced tech, including artificial gravity of its own.
 
If we take TAS not only as canon (I do) but also as in continuity (which I mostly do), then the origin of artificial gravity is stated to be "a flying belt [found in a stasis box] which was the key to the artificial gravity field used by starships" ["The Slaver Weapon"]. No date is given for this discovery, so even 20th century is conceivable.

From the Memory Beta article about the Botany Bay:

The nuclear-powered ship was developed under top secret conditions by the United States of America in the 1990s. It was named after an Australian penal colony. The technology was taken in part from the Ferengi shuttle that belonged to Quark, after it had traveled back in time and crashed on Earth in 1947. Some technology, such as the specifications for the impulse engines, were provided by Gary Seven and Roberta Lincoln. (TOS novel: The Rise and Fall of Khan Noonien Singh, Volume 2, ST website: StarTrek.com)​

Technology from the future, from Gary Seven, or from both are possible and interesting explanations for how the Botany Bay seems to have advanced tech, including artificial gravity of its own.
Makes sense to me!

:hugegrin:
 
"Fictional" was a poor word choice on my part. "Hypothetical" or perhaps even "conjectural" might have been a better choice.

I understand that the gravitron as a hypothetical mechanism for gravity has been a popular idea with a good pedigree, but I've heard other propositions as well with their own interesting implications.

Speaking as an uneducated layman, the concept that seems most intuitive to me is that gravity is an emergent phenomenon where mass distorts spacetime, causing otherwise "flat" space to curve, sending objects in their straight-line inertial path in an objectively curved course. It also slows down time--the closer to the mass, the slower time flows. "Down" is where time runs slower. The idea of this working because of photon-analog particles doesn't make sense to me (of course I concede that people smarter than me think it makes sense just fine).

My recollection, though it's vague, is that it's possible to describe electromagnetic fields in terms of pure geometry/topology in the same way Einstein describes gravity, and we know that photons exist. Often in physics, it's possible to use more than one mathematical model to describe different facets of the same thing. So just because gravitation can be described topologically doesn't exclude the possibility of a quantum interpretation.

After all, all physics is fundamentally quantum physics. Classical physics is just an approximation of quantum physics for large ensembles of particles. That, I think, is the reason it's so hard to construct a quantum theory of gravitation -- because it's a force that's only measurable on large scales, between large masses where the particle-level quantum effects are swamped by noise and average out to classical behavior. Gravitational interactions of individual particles are so feeble that it's extremely hard to gather the measurements that would confirm quantum gravity.

I've come across one or two hypotheses claiming that gravitation is actually a fictitious force and gravitons don't exist, but they both define it as a manifestation of quantum effects. I actually used one of those theories in my Hub novelettes in Analog -- that gravitation is a property of particles' wavefunctions to tend toward their most probable location in an ensemble, which statistically speaking would be toward its center of mass. The other one, IIRC, is that gravitation is basically the Casimir Effect writ large -- that massive objects shield each other from the background vacuum energy of the cosmos and thus get pushed toward each other by the pressure of the vacuum energy, which looks like they're being pulled toward each other by gravity. I'm pretty skeptical of both of those theories, though. (I used one because it was interesting from a story perspective, not because I really believed it. And The Hub is a comedy series, so sometimes Rule of Funny prevails.)


The idea that gravity effects time is something that I feel hard sci-fi has not explored enough of. There are some interesting ideas in there for sure.

Gravitational time dilation is an extremely weak effect, so it would only come into play extremely close to a black hole, which limits its applicability. Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda used time dilation from a close passage near a black hole as a mechanism to suspend its protagonist in time 300 years, although it fudged the physics and massively exaggerated how severe the time dilation was (handwaving it as an interaction with the Andromeda Ascendant's AG fields). Fredrik Pohl's classic novel Gateway used a similar plot device, though I don't know the specifics. Stargate SG-1's "A Matter of Time" and Doctor Who's "Worlds Enough and Time"/"The Doctor Falls" also used gravitational time dilation from black holes, again exaggerating it enormously for story purposes.

Although if you want to talk more generally about gravitation affecting time, most forms of time warp in fiction are consequences of gravitation affecting spacetime, tilting the space and time axes so that travel through space results in travel through time. Wormholes are one example, and there's also the closed timelike curve resulting from passage through a black hole's ergosphere (which TOS: "Tomorrow is Yesterday" managed to depict 7 years before Frank Tipler's paper formally describing the phenomenon). The time warp in TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise," described as "a Kerr loop of superstring material," was based on the physics of a Kerr black hole, a rotating one where the singularity becomes a ring that would function basically as a spacetime portal if you could survive passage through it. (They mistakenly said "superstring" for "cosmic string," but otherwise it was much better physics than later Trek productions where they just made up gibberish words.)


I have wondered if gravitons are like Ptolemy's epicycles: the math works, but it just ain't the real deal. If they are experimentally confirmed soon, I'll eat my words.

The thing about epicycles is that they made the theory more complicated than it needed to be, piling on arbitrary ad hoc assumptions rather than just admitting a mistake and starting over with something more straightforward. I don't think that applies here. Gravitation following the same quantum physics as everything else in the universe seems straightforward and elegant to me; gravitation being the only purely classical phenomenon in an otherwise quantum universe seems arbitrary and clunky to me, something people want to believe because they can't think of an alternative rather than something that actually makes sense if derived from first principles. (Although as I mentioned, there are a couple of fringe theories explaining gravitation as a quantum effect without gravitons.)


But it's functional, and at the end of the day, it's better than Centripetal Artificial Gravity.

It's not wrong to call it centrifugal. Centrifugal force is "fictitious," but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, as laypeople often misinterpret the term; it means that whether you observe it depends on what frame of reference you measure it in. What an outside observer will measure as a centripetal force counteracting an object's inertia, an observer within the rotating frame will measure as an acceleration directly outward from the center, hence centrifugal. And only an observer inside the rotating frame will feel the force as an equivalent of gravity, so from that perspective it should be called centrifugal. (Or one could parse it more simply as "pertaining to a centrifuge.")
 
Is there anything in Star Trek that would suggest that they are incapable of creating a no-gradient gravity field? So if they wanted to have a constant 1g from the deck place to the ceiling it should be trivial for them to do?
The TNG Tech Manual says they can and do:

The field is gentle enough to allow natural walking without a gravity gradient from head to foot, long a problem in brute-force physical centripetal systems.
 
It's not wrong to call it centrifugal. Centrifugal force is "fictitious," but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, as laypeople often misinterpret the term; it means that whether you observe it depends on what frame of reference you measure it in. What an outside observer will measure as a centripetal force counteracting an object's inertia, an observer within the rotating frame will measure as an acceleration directly outward from the center, hence centrifugal. And only an observer inside the rotating frame will feel the force as an equivalent of gravity, so from that perspective it should be called centrifugal. (Or one could parse it more simply as "pertaining to a centrifuge.")
Both Centrifugal & Centripetal should technically work. We both know what we're trying to describe.
 
Both Centrifugal & Centripetal should technically work. We both know what we're trying to describe.

They're not interchangeable. "Centrifugal" means "fleeing the center," "centripetal" means "seeking the center." They describe opposite force vectors. "Centripetal gravity" would literally mean a pull toward the center, which is inaccurate in this context. A person inside a rotating habitat would feel a sensation of weight pulling them directly outward from the center, which is centrifugal by definition. Only an outside observer in a non-rotating frame would perceive it as a centripetal push countering the person's tangential inertia, but that would not look like gravity to such an observer.
 
They're not interchangeable. "Centrifugal" means "fleeing the center," "centripetal" means "seeking the center." They describe opposite force vectors. "Centripetal gravity" would literally mean a pull toward the center, which is inaccurate in this context. A person inside a rotating habitat would feel a sensation of weight pulling them directly outward from the center, which is centrifugal by definition. Only an outside observer in a non-rotating frame would perceive it as a centripetal push countering the person's tangential inertia, but that would not look like gravity to such an observer.
IC, so Centrifugal it is.
 
IC, so Centrifugal it is.
No, you were right the first time.
Both Centrifugal & Centripetal should technically work. We both know what we're trying to describe.
"Both Centrifugal & Centripetal should technically work." But there should be the proviso of when it is appropriate to use the terms; they are not equivalent terms.

There is no preferred frame of reference to describe the situation. The inertial frame in which it is observed that the objects riding the centrifuge are subjected to a centripetal force that originates from the electromagnetic interactions of those objects with the inner surface of the spinning drum, a force that is normal to the inner surface and directed towards the hub of the centrifuge, that inertial frame is a perfectly valid frame of reference from which to observe the spinning centrifuge. It's why my physics professors insisted to refer to the force as centripetal.
 
"Both Centrifugal & Centripetal should technically work." But there should be the proviso of when it is appropriate to use the terms; they are not equivalent terms.

There is no preferred frame of reference to describe the situation. The inertial frame in which it is observed that the objects riding the centrifuge are subjected to a centripetal force that originates from the electromagnetic interactions of those objects with the inner surface of the spinning drum, a force that is normal to the inner surface and directed towards the hub of the centrifuge, that inertial frame is a perfectly valid frame of reference from which to observe the spinning centrifuge. It's why my physics professors insisted to refer to the force as centripetal.
Ok, now I'm confused.

@Christopher

Which term is more accurate in what situation & what frame of reference?
 
Which term is more accurate in what situation & what frame of reference?

As CorporalCaptain and I both said, it depends on where you're measuring from. To an outside observer in a stationary reference frame, a centripetal force is countering an object's inertia, pulling it toward the center and keeping it from flying off on a tangent, like if you're spinning a bucket around you on a rope. The bucket wants to fly in a straight line, but the rope pulls it toward you and makes it go in a circle. That's what's really happening from a physics standpoint.

But an observer inside a rotating frame of reference will measure it differently. Any test they perform will show that there's a centrifugal acceleration, a force pulling them out away from the center. The water in the bucket is pushed against the bottom. The person in a space habitat is pushed against the ground. To an outside observer, the ground is pushing up on them, or rather pulling them in toward the center, but in the rotating frame, the ground is stationary and the force is outward. So the rotating observer would be correct to call it centrifugal force.

The thing is, since centrifugal force is a fictitious force -- one that's a product of other forces and only manifests in certain reference frames -- laypeople tend to take "fictitious" too literally and assume it means it's wrong to use the term in any context. But that's overcorrecting. Fictitious forces have very real effects in the contexts where they're observed, and it's valid to talk about them within those contexts. (The etymology of "fictitious" is from a Latin word for "artificial" or "made," so it means a force that's created by other forces, rather than a force that's imaginary or unreal.)
 
They presumably used artificial gravity. I don't recall the show ever stating that their gravity plating was a brand new technology, but I may have forgotten something.
it wasn't new with the NX class. Travis was familiar with it from his time on civilian freighters and knew about the sweet spot where the fields overlapped in a way that would allow you to jump and land on the cieling
 
If we take TAS not only as canon (I do) but also as in continuity (which I mostly do), then the origin of artificial gravity is stated to be "a flying belt [found in a stasis box] which was the key to the artificial gravity field used by starships" ["The Slaver Weapon"]. No date is given for this discovery, so even 20th century is conceivable.

From the Memory Beta article about the Botany Bay:

The nuclear-powered ship was developed under top secret conditions by the United States of America in the 1990s. It was named after an Australian penal colony. The technology was taken in part from the Ferengi shuttle that belonged to Quark, after it had traveled back in time and crashed on Earth in 1947. Some technology, such as the specifications for the impulse engines, were provided by Gary Seven and Roberta Lincoln. (TOS novel: The Rise and Fall of Khan Noonien Singh, Volume 2, ST website: StarTrek.com)​

Technology from the future, from Gary Seven, or from both are possible and interesting explanations for how the Botany Bay seems to have advanced tech, including artificial gravity of its own.
there's also that Starling guy from Voyager, where they got he mobile emitter from, who IIRC was reverse engineering tech from a crashed future ship
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top