Because characters should grow.
Garrett Wang
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I understand Jennifer Lien is a very shy and private person. She very rarely spoke about her personal life, even when she was famous. She has never publicly complained about being let go. She once said that actors have to realise that happens. I believe she was initially enthusiastic about returning for Fury, and sometimes implied that was her favourite episode. In her last published interview in 2010, however, she said she felt The Gift was better, and felt she had made some poor acting choices in Fury. After that, nothing.
I believe she never even made another convention appearance. While I would love to see her in person someday, I understand that conventions were always difficult for her because of her shyness. It is quite possible that she never knew what she was letting herself in for by signing up for Voyager, which wasn't just an acting job like she had done before. Unlike TOS (aired on an existing network) and TNG and DS9 (first run syndicated) Voyager was the show that launched an overambitious new network. All of the main cast were expected to be 'ambassadors' for the new network. Lien was a good actor, especially with a good script and a good director, but was probably not up to the promotional part of the job.
In fact, I am a bit suspicious of the announcements regarding 'the truth' about her surrounding the new book. Looks a bit like cashing in on someone else's suffering. Like I said, she is a very shy and private person.
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if the outsider speaks with the right people, the resultcan be very interesting and informative.
I've read tons of biographies about certain celebrities, mostly rock stars.
The "official ones" are often quite boring and doiesn't always tell the truth, although some can be very interesting if the people involved are determined to tell the true story.
The best one are those who are written by someone who really tells the true story from all perspectives while still remains objective.
I doubt that Lien will write a book or tell a story but it would be very interesting to read it if she did and was honest in her storytelling.
Not if it sacrifice quality.
The worst and most stupid thing to do is to change just for the sake of changing.
If you have a winning concept, then stick to it. Try to develope it but don't ruin it.
There's the difficult balance between success and failure.
I know about a good rock band who had a lot of success for some years. Then they decided to change their style to a more commercial approach, more into current trends and to gain new fans
So they made an album- which became a total failure.
The old fans thought they had "sold out" and the new fans they eventually gained soon left them for more trendy stuff.
They did realize their mistake and tried to go back to their original style. But it was too late. They never got their old fanbase back and didn't get an y new fans either.
Static characters are not quality.
Because it's run its course. And if you're not going to have Riker move on, write "Best of Both Worlds" differently, so that we don't see him emerge as the great captain he should have been.
Ditto with Harry. Not saying they should have bumped either character off, but if they had... would it have affected the series much? About all people say about Harry is that he never got promoted. If he had perished (for real this time) in "Scorpion", when his low rank still made sense, would people say much of anything? Played the clarinet, maybe? Tom's pal?
My rationale is that if they had planned on having Kes live out her days on Voyager, marry, have a kid, grow old, life itself in its glory and tragedy... why have an episode that has all that happen in microcosm?
I had no problem with "The Gift", but "Darking" would have been a perfectly acceptable exit for Kes as well.
Both right. But I think setting Riker (and Data) on a new path could have worked.
Data thought he would out live the Federation.
He had time to fuck about.
He had time to fuck about.
Indeed. Quality assumes the product is improving, not just static. If Riker were a fresh commander, new to the whole executive officer thing, it would work. But, he's not. His stated goal is to command a starship, not play second fiddle always. It works against his character, and as such diminishes quality.
Maybe not.
But it's all about developing them in a good way (like most of the DS9 characters) and not ruining them by making changes just for the sake of changing.
But instead he became a valuable character in the great TNG series and (if we speak about the Star Trek Universe) a great sidekick to Picard. Much better than to dump him and replace him with some second hand character.
Just look at my former favorite series NCIS where almost all of the great characters have been replaced by third-rate no-nos. I can live without such changes.
They should have developed Harry, not dumped him or letting him stagnate as they did. Look how Nog and Jake were developed in DS9!
Well, I have mixed emotions about that episode because it didn't lead anywhere and were just weird. The good part was that it gave us a glimpse of Kes's life before Voyager and hope that The Doctor would have found a way to prolong Kes's lifespan. Now that is what they should have done, given her a prolonged lifespan and more important duties on the ship
Darkling would have been a more acceptable exit than The Gift but not a good one. Kes shouldn't have been dumped.
Data thought he would out live the Federation.
He had time toabout.
Maybe. But he had more command potential in one cheek of his "smoother than Riker's chin" android derriere than Deanna had in her whole body. So if she was getting a third pip, he certainly deserved one!
On that, we can fully agree!
That's why they should have replaced him with fan favorite Data.
But it had more character development than the entire frickin' series... and in true VOY fashion, they smashed the Big Red Reset Button and obliterated it.
A promotion should not be considered a change for the sake of change, but essential part of character growth in a show in an organization that is about growth of humanity. My favorite show of all time is MASH. The characters there have better growth than many others, and several get promotions along the way. JAG has the same thing. But Riker remains the faithful sidekick with no chance of growth. It becomes too static, too predictable and just too samey. And that's not for me.
Yes, change is a risk-that's the nature of life. Don't lie to me about life in a TV show for the sake of my feelings. Because when I get to the real world and real life isn't that way then the show becomes hollow, and a complete lie that breaks down in the face of actual characters developing. People are not static.
Believe it or not, that was a proposal around 'Second Chances'. The proposal was to have the original Riker die, but let his never promoted transporter twin survive. 'Lt Riker' would then take Data's old station, and Data would be promoted to 1st officer, all without 'brutally firing' anyone! I suspect this didn't go through partly because it would have confused viewers who missed one episode or saw some of them out of order.
Later, in 'Parallels', there is a reality in which Picard didn't survive his close encounter with the Borg, Riker becomes captain, and Worf becomes first officer – which Worf hates. Every reality shown in that episode is progressively worse for Worf.
Including the burden of Deanna becoming closer & closer to him :P
I never got the particular impression that every reality was worse for Worf or that he hated being first officer in itself, just that every next reality was further removed from his own reality.
Though the very last one we see (Worf and Riker being hounded by the Borg) definitely would have been the worst of them all.
That's the impression I got as well. Early on, it's a picture changing or a cake being a different flavor. Later on, it's bigger stuff.
Hmm. I wonder if there was an unseen alternate reality in "Parallels" in which the cake was a cellular peptide cake with mint frosting.
But they still would had to include a new character, someone not as good as Riker which should have been negative for the show.
Maybe it had some character development. But a lot of it was wrong development.
Imagine Voyager without Janeway and Torres. I can't
It was bad enough that they dumped Kes.
I think that we have to distinguish between the Star Trek Universe and the Gray Universe here.
In the Gray Universe we do have all those changes, negative or positive.
But in a TV series which is supposed to entertain us and make us forget the sometimes not so good changes and "development" in the Gray Universe, we actually need to have those series with our favorites who can inspire us and entertain us.
It can actually be devastating with "changes for the sake of changing" as I've described before.
One of my favorite series is NCIS which in resent time have had a lot of changes, due to actors quitting and new ones coming in. That has changed the series to the worse as I see it and what used to be an event to look forward to every week simply isn't anymore.
As it is now, I'm re-watching the series from the start on DVD.s and it strikes me how good it was back then compared to what it has become in recent years.
The same with Star Trek. I don't want characters like Riker, Tuvok, or other favorites being replaced by no-no's just because "things like that happen in the Gray Universe" and "we have to change for the sake of changing".
There are many series I've simply quit watching because some great character has been dumped and replaced by a no-no or because the stories have became so bad that they don't give me the entertainment I want to have.
And for the first time ever, there are no series which I regularily watch because the only thing I find out there are badly written and badly acted dystopian 2020's series filled with gore and darkness.
And I don't like that.
Nope. I refuse to forget and any entertainment that does so gets rejected out of hand.
I don't feel that whether or not a character is a fan favorite should be a factor in whether they're protected them from being written off a show. It should ideally be dictated by realism and whether their departure makes for a good story.
I've come to loathe the idea that everyone in a 'military'-based Sci-Fi series lives, or goes out like a hero, because that's not how the real world works. Tasha's original death may have been meaningless, but especially as the chief of security, it was what she signed on for, and while she may have regretted how pointless it was, I don't think she'd ever regret sacrificing herself for her crew. DISCO similarly handled a major character death well, though the amount of attention they put on it made it somewhat more awkward that other characters went out without it even being remarked upon. SG-1 did a great episode on a similar note, while for all its flaws I feel LOST also did a pretty good job of showing that people don't just get over the death of someone they know within the course of an hour.
Kes's becoming something more than a short-lived Ocampan had already been teased. I have mixed feelings about whether "Before and After" was intended to show one way her life might have gone with the intention that we'd never get to see that track in more detail, but I feel "The Gift" was a fairly organic ending to her story while "Fury" was something nobody asked for, and certainly demonstrated that the former could have been handled much worse.
I've come to loathe the idea that everyone in a 'military'-based Sci-Fi series lives, or goes out like a hero, because that's not how the real world works. Tasha's original death may have been meaningless, but especially as the chief of security, it was what she signed on for, and while she may have regretted how pointless it was, I don't think she'd ever regret sacrificing herself for her crew. DISCO similarly handled a major character death well, though the amount of attention they put on it made it somewhat more awkward that other characters went out without it even being remarked upon. SG-1 did a great episode on a similar note, while for all its flaws I feel LOST also did a pretty good job of showing that people don't just get over the death of someone they know within the course of an hour.
Kes's becoming something more than a short-lived Ocampan had already been teased. I have mixed feelings about whether "Before and After" was intended to show one way her life might have gone with the intention that we'd never get to see that track in more detail, but I feel "The Gift" was a fairly organic ending to her story while "Fury" was something nobody asked for, and certainly demonstrated that the former could have been handled much worse.
"Before and After" was not intended to be continued. It was a substitute for the Kes arc we should have had. And as such, it could up the proverbial ante in changes because none of it was actually going to happen (kind of like when they knocked the crap out of the ship in "Year of Hell", aware that the Reset Button would fix it). Had Kes's story unfolded properly, over four years, a lot of what we saw in B&A would not have happened. They would not have killed off fan-favorite Janeway (B'Elanna is possible but not likely). Tom might have wound up with Kes, but I doubt Harry would have married Linnis, since he would have been feeding a bottle to her two or three years earlier.
This episode wasn't about any of them anyway, it was about Kes. As in, "Kes isn't going to have her abbreviated lifetime on the show proper, so let's do an AU episode that shows what might have been".
It probably doesn't help that NCIS has been around for longer than the first four series (TOS, TAS, TNG, and DS9) combined. There's probably some plot fatigue along with the character loss.
I don't like that trend either. I only have one streaming service (Paramount Plus), and I only keep it around for Star Trek.
Did you have access to the third season of The Orville?And for the first time ever, there are no series which I regularily watch because the only thing I find out there are badly written and badly acted dystopian 2020's series filled with gore and darkness.
And I don't like that.
Indeed. And in a dramatic presentation the idea that characters should be protected because of fan favorite status, protecting the status quo, or avoiding any sort of meaningful change pretty much says to the audience, "Don't worry. Everything will be alright in the end." To me, it is extremely demeaning, on the lines of assuming fans don't pay attention to minor character details, like Riker's greatest wish to become a starship captain. That line no longer carries weight if he willingly gives up the dream. That's drama posion.
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