The rules might have been different back in 1997.
Garrett Wang
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Half of what I know about US Law comes from reruns of Ally McBeal.
I watched 2 seasons of Night Court yesterday and it taught me nothing stringent or useful about the American Legal System.
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I must state that there are no evidence at all that Jennifer had any personal or mental issues during her time in the Voyager cast.
Drop Chakotay, promote Tuvok to First Officer, part of the boredom issue would have been solved.
I never missed Kes. She was part of the boredom problem. And I must be the only person on the planet who likes Harry Kim (regardless of the actor's RL issues).
Harry actually has a lot of fans, despite the deplorable treatment of his character. And whatever issues Garrett Wang had in the past, he seems to be well regarded these days.
Not the only person, I love Harry! He’s such a cutie. I don’t mean that merely in the aesthetic sense either. I like his ingénue status. I did not want a “break the cutie” trope for Harry so I settled for what they gave him which was, admittedly, often the narrative equivalent of porridge.
I wish they had been able to really lean into his role as the ingénue. Addressing how difficult it is to remain hopeful, earnest and deferential when the paragons you looked up to and the structures you depended on are fraying around you is a theme that’s rarely addressed. That is to say, if Voyager had been a scrappier show, Harry fighting to maintain his innocence could have been really engaging.
It's too bad the original plan for "Year of Hell" wasn't done. That really would have led to digging into each character's strengths and weaknesses and would have offered scope for them to grow.
Years ago I read a fanfic in which Janeway had a baby and named it after Harry (I don't remember if Chakotay or Q was the father). The story was pure camp, but even so, it was nice that Harry was treated as a hero.
Harry has a lot to recommend him.
* Highly intelligent. One of the highest in his class.
* Very capable. Most newbie grads are lower deckers... Harry's a department head.
* Good at building stuff. When Janeway needs a Delta Flyer or astrometrics lab built, who she gonna call?
* Personable. He seems well liked.
* Musically gifted.
* Loyal to a fault. His actions in "Non Sequitur" prove that.
* And, he's even a good dad, we hear Linnis gushing about him in "Before and After".
Only downsides are...
* He's overly trusting sometimes.
* He's a bit undisciplined, and sometimes doesn't know when to shut up. As seen in "Resolutions" and later "The Disease".
* He's not ready for command, by his own admission. But there's five rank-ups between Ensign and Captain, and he IS ready for the first.
* Highly intelligent. One of the highest in his class.
* Very capable. Most newbie grads are lower deckers... Harry's a department head.
* Good at building stuff. When Janeway needs a Delta Flyer or astrometrics lab built, who she gonna call?
* Personable. He seems well liked.
* Musically gifted.
* Loyal to a fault. His actions in "Non Sequitur" prove that.
* And, he's even a good dad, we hear Linnis gushing about him in "Before and After".
Only downsides are...
* He's overly trusting sometimes.
* He's a bit undisciplined, and sometimes doesn't know when to shut up. As seen in "Resolutions" and later "The Disease".
* He's not ready for command, by his own admission. But there's five rank-ups between Ensign and Captain, and he IS ready for the first.
I wonder if they kept Harry and got rid of Kes simply because Harry was on the bridge - if they got rid of one of the regular bridge scene characters, they would either have to have Seven in most bridge scenes or have an extra with a speaking role.
Possible, though said determination would require intelligence on the Voyager showrunners' part.
They shouldn't have dumped any of the main characters. If it was so necessary to bring in Seven, then they could have just added her.
Look at Deep Space Nine! That excedllent series had 8 main characters to start with. Then they added Worf. It also had a lot of excellent recurring characters who did show up in most episodes. They had Garak who more and less became a main character, they had Nog, Rom, Dukat, Winn, Weyoun, Gowron etc.
Voyager could have done the same. But those in charge couldn't even handle the few recurring characters they had. Just look at Carey, the worst example of how to not treat a good recurring character.
What DS9 had and Voyager unfortunately hadn't was good writers and producers. If Voyager had had the same writers and producers as DS9 had, the show could have been much better.
As for Harry, he's not one of my absolute favorite Voyager characters. Sometimes I got tired of his somewhat whiny attitude and the whole "whipping boy" syndrome which we saw in episodes like Emanations, The Thaw and The Chute. But he was an OK character and I actually like him. I wouldn't have liked to see him being dumped either and definitely not Chakotay who is my second favorite of the show after Kes.
Look at Deep Space Nine! That excedllent series had 8 main characters to start with. Then they added Worf. It also had a lot of excellent recurring characters who did show up in most episodes. They had Garak who more and less became a main character, they had Nog, Rom, Dukat, Winn, Weyoun, Gowron etc.
Voyager could have done the same. But those in charge couldn't even handle the few recurring characters they had. Just look at Carey, the worst example of how to not treat a good recurring character.
What DS9 had and Voyager unfortunately hadn't was good writers and producers. If Voyager had had the same writers and producers as DS9 had, the show could have been much better.
As for Harry, he's not one of my absolute favorite Voyager characters. Sometimes I got tired of his somewhat whiny attitude and the whole "whipping boy" syndrome which we saw in episodes like Emanations, The Thaw and The Chute. But he was an OK character and I actually like him. I wouldn't have liked to see him being dumped either and definitely not Chakotay who is my second favorite of the show after Kes.
Vorik, Naomi, Mezoti, and Icheb were interesting characters. I agree that Carey was badly handled.
But Chakotay was BORING. And so was Kes. In my not-remotely-humble opinion.
There are a few fanfiction writers who figured out how to make Chakotay more interesting. But alas, they weren't writing for the show.
But Chakotay was BORING. And so was Kes. In my not-remotely-humble opinion.
There are a few fanfiction writers who figured out how to make Chakotay more interesting. But alas, they weren't writing for the show.
Google says a new book came out where the cast was interviewed, which suggested she had problems, and Jeri Taylor offered to help.
https://moviechat.org/nm0000497/Jen...Real-Story-of-Why-Kes-was-Written-off-Voyager
As do I. The problem with Harry wasn't a lack of potential as a character... it was the showrunners' refusal to do anything with him. If I had to describe Harry's character, it would go something like. "Never promoted, Tom's best buddy, plays the clarinet, and... uh..."
That's not much for a main character.DS9 had three characters in a similar position to Harry (Bashir, Jake, and Nog), and handled them all well.
You don't always dump a character because you dislike them. I remember killing one off in a story I wrote (years ago, not this fandom) not because he was bad, but because he was an unwelcome third in a love triangle, and I hadn't created a suitable girl to stick him with. I could see doing the same with a character who just isn't going anywhere... given the potential emotional impact of their death, it might just be the best use for them.
Agreed. If DS9 could make 20+ characters interesting, VOY could probably handle 10.
That's an understatement if ever there was one.
Thanks to "The 37's", there was a perfect arc for Carey, as the leader of the small faction (5 or 6 people, and all Maquis except him) who jumps ship. It never made sense to me that no one did. And if Carey saw some development over the first season, it would have given an emotional edge to his unexpected departure. And they could have brought him back in the occasional AU or time travel episode, the way they did Seska.
Chakotay was boring because he wasn't made interesting. It was the writers/producers' job to develop him. That included giving him a tribal identity that didn't come from a random huckster.
That was a tragic story, and it sadly jibes with what I saw elsewhere. All too often, good people make bad choices, and it seems especially true with actors and other artists. Being artistic and being self-destructive seem to go hand in hand.
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Indeed. I have written in a variety of formats and forums, and also have a wife who is a prolific writer. To think that killing or dumping a character is due to dislike ignores the foundational part of the the writing process-characters exists in part to serve the story. It's not always an emotional one but very much a "Where are we going from here." It's actually the reason why Obi-Wan dies in A New Hope.
My wife often jokes that her fan fic readers must think she is incredibly cruel to her characters as she writes, when she is just trying to move them towards a specifc dramatic beat, not just "You suck so I'll torture you."
Writing can work like that but I don't know many writers who think that way.
Yup. If they hadn't used bad information they might have actually had an interesting character. As well as created some consistency and growth.
What type(s) of fanfic does she write?
She writes a story based around "The Hobbit." She does have a self-insert character but has worked hard to avoid the Mary Sue traps. Milage will vary as to her success.
As do I. The problem with Harry wasn't a lack of potential as a character... it was the showrunners' refusal to do anything with him. If I had to describe Harry's character, it would go something like. "Never promoted, Tom's best buddy, plays the clarinet, and... uh..."
DS9 had three characters in a similar position to Harry (Bashir, Jake, and Nog), and handled them all well.
You're right. They developed, something which Harry wasn't allowed to do.
Harry is actually better in the Voyager books from season 1,2 and 3. In many of those he's actually useful and doing something. The omly problem is the "whipping boy-syndrome" in some of them too. he's injred and close to death in some books.
It would be very special circumstances if i should kill off a main character who I have created.
In a case like you mention, I would rather send the character some place else. Like another spaceship, another place in the world or so.
Exactly my thoughts too.
[/QUOTE]Chakotay was boring because he wasn't made interesting. It was the writers/producers' job to develop him. That included giving him a tribal identity that didn't come from a random huckster.[/QUOTE]
Chakotay had a lot of potential.
With better writers, Chakotay could have been as good as Riker.
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