Garrett Wang

[Oddish]

Ok, check this out...
They planned to stick Harry in "Picard", having been promoted to captain... the whole three-episode arc featuring him gets cut.
They plan to stick Harry in "Prodigy", undoubtedly as a higher ranking officer... but the series itself ceases to exist!
Data had similar bad luck with promotions, Worf had similar misfortune in love, and Miles was just as unfortunate in terms of general suffering... but here,
It's like the whole ing Star Trek franchise as a whole has a vendetta against Harry... I don't think any other character can beat that!

We've found the Chuck Norris of Star Trek in Captain Janeway, and some people call Neelix its Jar-Jar Binks... I think we have our Wile E. Coyote as well.

 

[Phaser Two]

Don't give up on Prodigy.

 

[Oddish]

To an extent, I haven't. Season 2 was basically in the can, and I think the series will find a new home, and those episodes will be released. But we don't know if Garrett's planned appearance there happened in S2. If it did, then of course Harry has already returned in canin, and it's just a matter of us seeing it aired. If it did not, well, I don't think there will be any more seasons produced. Paramount Plus were the ones making the show, and they've canceled it.

I would be delighted to be proven wrong, though.

 

[Lynx]

Ok, check this out...
They planned to stick Harry in "Picard", having been promoted to captain... the whole three-episode arc featuring him gets cut.
They plan to stick Harry in "Prodigy", undoubtedly as a higher ranking officer... but the series itself ceases to exist!
Data had similar bad luck with promotions, Worf had similar misfortune in love, and Miles was just as unfortunate in terms of general suffering... but here,
It's like the whole ing Star Trek franchise as a whole has a vendetta against Harry... I don't think any other character can beat that!

We've found the Chuck Norris of Star Trek in Captain Janeway, and some people call Neelix its Jar-Jar Binks... I think we have our Wile E. Coyote as well.

I don't think that Janeway actually reached the level of Chuck Norris (I actually like Walker, Texas Ranger) and Neelix was far, far better than Jar-Jar Binks. Neelix had a lot of depth as character and his odd behavior could actually be explained by his tragic background story which was revealed in jetrel.

As for poor Harry, he could had become a Timothy McGee with good writers or at least been more like Geordi LaForge. Due to bad writing, he became the "whipping boy" of the series and most of al reminds me of Josh Macahan from the Western seres "The Macahans". Josh was the younger brother in the series who managed to end up in all kind of trouble and be beaten up. he could hardly fetch a bucket of water outside the house without making some mistake and then being beaten up.

he's actually much better in some of the Voyager books, even if the "whipping boy" syndrome is there too because he's badly injured and close to death in too many of the books as well.

 

[Oddish]

I don't think that Janeway actually reached the level of Chuck Norris (I actually like Walker, Texas Ranger)

Well, we never actually see Chuck Norris do all the stuff they say he did (count to infinity, bust up Superman, or swim through concrete), but we sure saw Kathryn do some stuff. As seen here:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/who-needs-chuck-norris-when-youve-got-kathryn-janeway.307281/

Neelix was far, far better than Jar-Jar Binks. Neelix had a lot of depth as character and his odd behavior could actually be explained by his tragic background story which was revealed in jetrel.

Neelix was supposed to be a clever rogue who hid behind the façade of a buffoon... but then the writers forgot about the clever rogue part. Probably because they were buffoons themselves.

As for poor Harry, he could had become a Timothy McGee with good writers or at least been more like Geordi LaForge. Due to bad writing, he became the "whipping boy" of the series

I wonder how much of it was just plot contrivance and how much was a targeted effort to humiliate his character. Despite being intelligent, capable, and loyal to a fault... he's known throughout the fandom as "poor dumb Harry Kim". And given that both efforts to right the wrong that was done to him on Voyager were thwarted by the powers that be, the Trek-verse may not be done stomping on him.

 

[Oddish]

I decided to move these statements to the relevant topic, so I could address them at length without irritating the moderators too much.

Still, there is a chance that [Harry] might show up in some future series.
Unfortunately there are characters who we'll never see again.
Maybe Harry can be somewhat restored to glory in some book.

He's gotten plenty of glory in non-canon sources. Problem is the operative word: NON-CANON. Until a canon source brings justice to the character, his canon rank remains ensign. And consider that his character supposedly "belonged" to "Prodigy". That doesn't mean "featured". While I think S2 will see the light of day, I don't think there will be any more. And if they weren't planning on featuring him until S3 or later... well that translates to "not happening". And that leaves only one 24th century show standing: "Lower Decks". Do I have to tell you what they would probably do with him?

Including this hullaballoo over Harry Kim not receiving a promotion, when most of the major characters were never promoted, with the exception of Tuvok. Tom Paris had merely regained his old rank after a season-and-a-half. I don't regard that as a true promotion.

He stepped out on the bridge (22 seconds late) with an ensign's insignia (○) on his collar. He left the bridge at shift's end with a lieutenant's insignia (○●) on his collar. That's a promotion.

Further, Janeway told him that: "Your performance on this ship over the past year has been exemplary. I expect more of the same." (Exact quote) So, Tom got his lieutenant's pip for one year (actually, about one and a half) of exemplary service. Harry had six years under his belt, and his service had likewise been lauded as exemplary: "I just want you to know you've been one of the bright spots of this whole mission. You've exceeded any expectations I might have had of you." (Also exact quote)

Now, you are free to believe that Tom deserved recognition for a year and a half of quality service, while Harry deserved unpleasant accusations (seen in "Nightingale") for six. But you'll forgive me for not being convinced.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I decided to move these statements to the relevant topic, so I could address them at length without irritating the moderators too much.



He's gotten plenty of glory in non-canon sources. Problem is the operative word: NON-CANON. Until a canon source brings justice to the character, his canon rank remains ensign. And consider that his character supposedly "belonged" to "Prodigy". That doesn't mean "featured". While I think S2 will see the light of day, I don't think there will be any more. And if they weren't planning on featuring him until S3 or later... well that translates to "not happening". And that leaves only one 24th century show standing: "Lower Decks". Do I have to tell you what they would probably do with him?



He stepped out on the bridge (22 seconds late) with an ensign's insignia (○) on his collar. He left the bridge at shift's end with a lieutenant's insignia (○●) on his collar. That's a promotion.

Further, Janeway told him that: "Your performance on this ship over the past year has been exemplary. I expect more of the same." (Exact quote) So, Tom got his lieutenant's pip for one year (actually, about one and a half) of exemplary service. Harry had six years under his belt, and his service had likewise been lauded as exemplary: "I just want you to know you've been one of the bright spots of this whole mission. You've exceeded any expectations I might have had of you." (Also exact quote)

Now, you are free to believe that Tom deserved recognition for a year and a half of quality service, while Harry deserved unpleasant accusations (seen in "Nightingale") for six. But you'll forgive me for not being convinced.

Not the real Harry. Never went to the academy.

Destroyed time and the universe in Timeless, which is why the ECH is above him in the command structure.

Kim was put on the ship as a Maquis Specialist, and as a Maquis specialist he failed to kill any of them. Redundant.

As the section head of ops, Kim writes his own evaluations for promotion... Either he is tough on himself and makes himself look shit, or he is unbelievable easy on himself and makes himself look like a arrogant ego-maniacal liar.

The Doctor also self evaluates for his own promotions, we read his book, we know how that would look.

 

[Oddish]

Not the real. Never went to the academy.

Actually, yes. He did.

Destroyed time and the universe in Timeless, which is why the ECH is above him in the command structure.

Everybody on Trek messes with time. It's considered normal behavior.

Kim was put on the ship as a Maquis Specialist, and as a Maquis specialist he failed to kill any of them. Redundant.

That was Tom, actually.

As the section head of ops, Kim writes his own evaluations for promotion... Either he is tough on himself and he makes his self look shit, or he is unbelievable easy on himself and makes himself look like a arrogant ego-maniacal liar.

Which explains why Janeway and Chakotay have both expounded on how wonderful he is.

The Doctor also self evaluates for his own promotions, so you we read his book, we know how that would look.

The Doctor self-promotes. When he says "Activate ECH," pips appear on his collar.

Maybe if Harry could actually build a photonic cannon, that might be good for some advancement. Of course, given that he already helped build a warp 10 shuttle, the Delta Flyer, and Seven's astrometrics lab... maybe not.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Actually, yes. He did.



Everybody on Trek messes with time. It's considered normal behavior.



That was Tom, actually.



Which explains why Janeway and Chakotay have both expounded on how wonderful he is.



The Doctor self-promotes. When he says "Activate ECH," pips appear on his collar.

Maybe if Harry could actually build a photonic cannon, that might be good for some advancement. Of course, given that he already helped build a warp 10 shuttle, the Delta Flyer, and Seven's astrometrics lab... maybe not.

Harry was the editor of the Starfleet Academy "Newspaper" and edited/wrote a lot of fair and balanced stories about the Maquis, which was the only news worth talking about, when he was the Magnate controlling the free flow information on campus. (Voy: Investigations)

That makes him a Marquis Expert.

 

[Oddish]

But Janeway made a special point of taking Tom out of a penal colony. Which suggested it was his real world expertise she valued. Though Harry's less direct knowledge might have been relevant in her choosing him for her staff.

 

[Lynx]

He's gotten plenty of glory in non-canon sources. Problem is the operative word: NON-CANON. Until a canon source brings justice to the character, his canon rank remains ensign. And consider that his character supposedly "belonged" to "Prodigy". That doesn't mean "featured". While I think S2 will see the light of day, I don't think there will be any more. And if they weren't planning on featuring him until S3 or later... well that translates to "not happening". And that leaves only one 24th century show standing: "Lower Decks". Do I have to tell you what they would probably do with him?

I can see your point here!

The main reason why I stopped writing requests about a Kes come-back on the screen years ago is because of the same reason what you think will happen to Harry.

There's a risk that they would further ruin the character.

1. By finally killing her off.
2. By continuing the story from that episode.
3. By bringing in some awful actress in the role.

A Kes comeback in some book would be great. But there's always the risk that some author would damage the character even more. There is also the risk that the authors continue the story from that episode and further ruin the character. Some authors are such cowards, they won't dare to simply dismiss that episode totally and come up with another, better solution. Not even the Janeway biography (which I just have to buy and read) could stay out of that crap.

All credit to Christie Golden and Heather Jarman for at least trying to come up with something acceptable in the Dark Matter and String Theory books.

So as it is, I stick with my own stories in the Lynxverse where all such unpleasant things are done away with, where Kes is living on a planet near the Tzenkheti area and sometimes go out on her own missions, where Garak is back at Deep Space Nine as Cardassian Ambassador and where the Gowron which was killed off in the last episode of Deep Space Nine was revealed as a Cardassian spy and the real Gowron is back in charge!

As for Harry, I guess that it would be simpler to give him some glory and make him an ensign. But it depends on who is holding the pen!

 

[Oddish]

Some authors are such cowards, they won't dare to simply dismiss that episode totally and come up with another, better solution. Not even the Janeway biography (which I just have to buy and read) could stay out of that crap.

Unfortunately, I think the author couldn't contradict canonical events. For instance, she had Janeway promote Harry as the soonest possible moment, possibly mere minutes after the series ended. But she couldn't do it sooner.

So as it is, I stick with my own stories in the Lynxverse where all such unpleasant things are done away with, where Kes is living on a planet near the Tzenkheti area and sometimes go out on her own missions, where Garak is back at Deep Space Nine as Cardassian Ambassador and where the Gowron which was killed off in the last episode of Deep Space Nine was revealed as a Cardassian spy and the real Gowron is back in charge!

That Gowron thing never sat will with me. Don't know whether it was the political stupidity, the Oedipus-like irony (no mothers involved, but rather causing something to happen by trying to prevent it, both Oedipus and his parents did this), or the fact that Worf just "installed" Martok as Chancellor. So yes, I'll go along with that.

As for Harry, I guess that it would be simpler to give him some glory and make him an ensign. But it depends on who is holding the pen!

If he was in Picard, a relatively serious show, he would certainly hold a higher rank. If he was in Prodigy, it's pretty good about taking the characters seriously, so he'd probably be promoted there too. But LD likes playing with running gags, and Harry's eternal ensignhood (as mean-spirited as it was) fits that completely.

 

[Lynx]

Unfortunately, I think the author couldn't contradict canonical events. For instance, she had Janeway promote Harry as the soonest possible moment, possibly mere minutes after the series ended. But she couldn't do it sooner.

I can both understand and respect that.

It would be both confusing and stupid if an author wrote a book in which, let's say kathryn janeway decided to leave Starfleet and settle down on her aunt's ostrich farm in Colorado while she would show up in the next episode of the show or still be Captain on Voyager in the next book, written by some other author.

As I see it, it would have been impossible to make Kim a Lieutenant in a book when the series was still running. But I see no problem for some author to make him Lieutenant in a book now.

The same when it comes to Kes. It's actually possible to write around the events in that episode by simply regarding the monster in it as something from a mirror universe. By doing so, the events in the episode itself aren't denied or simply wiped out (even if I wish that the epsode would be wiped out from all future airings and DVD productions) but turned around to something better.

I don't want to gloat about myself since I'm not a professional writer. But I often try to write around certain issues I don't like, such as the events in that episode, Lieutenant Carey's death, the death of Gowron and Neelix being stranded on that horrible asteroid.

My biggest problem is Admiral Janeway. I think that she fits in better as Captain of Voyager so Imust find a solution to that. Simply demote her but how?

That Gowron thing never sat will with me. Don't know whether it was the political stupidity, the Oedipus-like irony (no mothers involved, but rather causing something to happen by trying to prevent it, both Oedipus and his parents did this), or the fact that Worf just "installed" Martok as Chancellor. So yes, I'll go along with that.

Maybe I'm weird but I like Gowron. He reminds me in looks amd manners about a person who lived in my neighborhood when I wasa kid, a nice but somewaht odd person to say the least.

And aslo as a Star Thek character. In a way, I found him better as Chancellor for the Klingon Empire than Martok, who I also like. But he was better as Admiral, co-operating with the federation. Gowropn was a bit more unpredictable. Not to mention those eyes!

But sometimes I have an odd taste when it comes to favorites in series, especially in Star Trek which the picture below shows. My aces in the Star Trek game!

If he was in Picard, a relatively serious show, he would certainly hold a higher rank. If he was in Prodigy, it's pretty good about taking the characters seriously, so he'd probably be promoted there too. But LD likes playing with running gags, and Harry's eternal ensignhood (as mean-spirited as it was) fits that completely.

The sad thing is that Star Trek is so split up now. many different series which have a certain amount of fans but nothing which holds it together. Picard could have been great but was too dystopic for me and it also looks like an attempt to show up the TNG characters for the last time, sort of "Farewell Tour" for a legendary rock band.

The other series are............well, nice in a way but can't be compared to what we had in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY.

I would really like to see a new series with new characters in the 24th cientury, made in the same spirit and with the same type of stories we saw in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY. No dystopic scenarios, political correctness or destruction of important worlds or other screw-ups of established Star Trek facts and things.

In short, something which would bring Star Trek back to life again worldwide.

 

[Tosk]

Unfortunately, I think the author couldn't contradict canonical events.

Pity they didn't hold Goodman to the same standard when he wrote the Shatner one. Dude threw an entire movie in the bin. (I quite enjoyed the book for the record, I just disagreed strongly with that one choice.)

 

[Oddish]

As I see it, it would have been impossible to make Kim a Lieutenant in a book when the series was still running. But I see no problem for some author to make him Lieutenant in a book now.

Most post-Voyager novelizations do. Given that the pathetic excuses the show gave on screen no longer apply, no surprise.

The same when it comes to Kes. It's actually possible to write around the events in that episode by simply regarding the monster in it as something from a mirror universe.

And it makes more sense than what we got with said episode. Kes ended her run on the show by ascending to a higher level of being (I know you didn't like that, @Lynx ...but I did). Why just reverse that for no reason? So yeah. Mirror Kes.

I don't want to gloat about myself since I'm not a professional writer. But I often try to write around certain issues I don't like, such as the events in that episode, Lieutenant Carey's death, the death of Gowron and Neelix being stranded on that horrible asteroid.

It's Ok to discuss fanfiction you wrote, especially when it's relevant to the topic. I still maintain that my ending of "When the Bough Breaks" is vastly superior to the canonical one.

My biggest problem is Admiral Janeway. I think that she fits in better as Captain of Voyager so I must find a solution to that. Simply demote her but how?

Well, it looks like she's effectively captain of Voyager-A in PRO S2. She's just wearing a different uniform.

But sometimes I have an odd taste when it comes to favorites in series, especially in Star Trek which the picture below shows. My aces in the Star Trek game!

Those are awesome choices. Quark and Garak are fan faves, and nothing wrong with having your own favorites as well.

I would really like to see a new series with new characters in the 24th century, made in the same spirit and with the same type of stories we saw in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY. No dystopic scenarios, political correctness or destruction of important worlds or other screw-ups of established Star Trek facts and things.

I think SNW comes close to that. It's got elements of TOS and TNG in terms of premise, but it's character driven, a la DS9.

 

[Lynx]

Most post-Voyager novelizations do. Given that the pathetic excuses the show gave on screen no longer apply, no surprise.

Well, at least something. I wish the same could happen for Kes but I don't trust any author when it comes to that. They would probably ruin the character even more.

And it makes more sense than what we got with said episode. Kes ended her run on the show by ascending to a higher level of being (I know you didn't like that, @Lynx ...but I did). Why just reverse that for no reason? So yeah. Mirror Kes.

The Gift was a crap episode.
But that episode in season 6 was a insluting and disgusting crap episode. Anyway, it took me 10 minutes to undo the damage to the character in The Gift and one minute to undo the damage to the caracter in that season 6 episode.

It's Ok to discuss fanfiction you wrote, especially when it's relevant to the topic. I still maintain that my ending of "When the Bough Breaks" is vastly superior to the canonical one.

I can't remember what it was now.

Well, it looks like she's effectively captain of Voyager-A in PRO S2. She's just wearing a different uniform.

Why did they cancel Prodigy?
Another act of stupidity from those in charge? I mean, they have let that horrible Discovery go on for 5 seasons so they could have let Prodigy go on for some seasons more. OK, it's animated but I does seem to have more substance tham much of the other Trek items which vave been produced after Voyager.

And Janeway is still a captain? Hmmmm.......it looks like it's time to give the lousy movie Nemesis the same treatment as Threshold, start vierwing it as something Picard had a nightmare about after being fooled to drink real wine instead of the synthetic, non-alcoholic wine they have on the spaceships. I mean, Picard encounters an evil clone of himself and all that. Looks as weird as Threshold!

It solved one of my problems but I have to re-write a story I did in that case.

Those are awesome choices. Quark and Garak are fan faves, and nothing wrong with having your own favorites as well.

Well, I just happen to like them. No offense to Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Riker or other main characters mut these fore are something specal, as I see it. Maybe I should add Q as a joker!

I think SNW comes close to that. It's got elements of TOS and TNG in terms of premise, but it's character driven, a la DS9.

If i will watch all episodes inany of those new series, then it will be SNW.

 

[Oddish]

Anyway, it took me 10 minutes to undo the damage to the character in The Gift and one minute to undo the damage to the caracter in that season 6 episode.

You got me beat. I don't know how long it took me to rewrite "Bough", but it was over 10 minutes.

I can't remember what it was now.

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/when-the-bough-breaks-a-story-in-one-better-ending.311302/

Why did they cancel Prodigy?
Another act of stupidity from those in charge?

Stupidity is an understatement. PRO was one of Nu Trek's best shows.

I mean, they have let that horrible Discovery go on for 5 seasons so they could have let Prodigy go on for some seasons more. OK, it's animated but I does seem to have more substance tham much of the other Trek items which have been produced after Voyager.

DIS wasn't horrible. It just wasn't our thing. I couldn't get through it either.

And Janeway is still a captain? Hmmmm.......it looks like it's time to give the lousy movie Nemesis the same treatment as Threshold, start vierwing it as something Picard had a nightmare about after being fooled to drink real wine instead of the synthetic, non-alcoholic wine they have on the spaceships. I mean, Picard encounters an evil clone of himself and all that. Looks as weird as Threshold!

If it means Data didn't die (and instead took his rightful place at Picard's side, the job he rocked under Jellico but couldn't have because William T. Riker had the ambition of a limp waffle), I'm in.

DEFINITELY I should add Q as a joker!

FTFY.

If i will watch all episodes inany of those new series, then it will be SNW.

It's worth watching. If you liked TOS's tongue in cheek, TNG's more ensemble approach, and DS9's character development... you should like SNW.

 

[fireproof78]

And Janeway is still a captain?

No.

She is a mission commander, overseeing a ship.

The other series are............well, nice in a way but can't be compared to what we had in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY.

Why would I compare?

I have DS9. And now DSC for my enjoyment and SNW, and others. I like them all for different reasons. No competition.

 

[Lynx]

You got me beat. I don't know how long it took me to rewrite "Bough", but it was over 10 minutes.

But you did a great job!
I actually like your ending is better than the one in the TV episode.

As for mine 10 minutes:

Spoiler: How Kes was restored

It's a part of the Coming Home story on The Kes Website, what I call "The Best Voyager Episode Never Made".

After leaving Voyager, Kes isn't turned into an energy being but instead rescued by Q who invites her to join the Q Continuum. However, Kes refuses. She want to go back to Voyager, have a human lifespan and follow the ship and its crew to Earth.

Q fulfil her wishes, because of some strange compassion for the brave Ocampa but also because he wants some help of her when it comes to solve a problem, which includes a conflict between two races, a Maquis ship which is also lost in the Delta Quadrant an Voyager itself. The part of the story in whech kes is restored and get a human lifespan took me 10 minutes to write, the whole story took at least two or three weeks.

The part in which the damage made to the character in that episode in seasion 6 is undone occurs when Kes finally see her friends on Voyager again. Janewayasks her about her "visit" to Voyager shortly:

”Weren’t you transformed, didn’t you go back to Ocampa after you attacked our ship, what happened-?”

”It wasn’t me”, answered Kes, horrified about the thought that someone who looked like her had tried to destroy Voyager. “Then it must have been a being from a mirror universe” Janeway said.

Stupidity is an understatement. PRO was one of Nu Trek's best shows.

I'll give you some points there.

DIS wasn't horrible. It just wasn't our thing. I couldn't get through it either.

I just didn't like it. Too many things which annoyed me, mostly the "Ninja Turtles Klingons".

If it means Data didn't die (and instead took his rightful place at Picard's side, the job he rocked under Jellico but couldn't have because William T. Riker had the ambition of a limp waffle), I'm in.

Extra points to me for saving Data! He should never have been killed off. He's one of my absolute favorites!

FTFY.

It's worth watching. If you liked TOS's tongue in cheek, TNG's more ensemble approach, and DS9's character development... you should like SNW.

I will take a look at it and I'm actually working on that problem.

No.

She is a mission commander, overseeing a ship.

Does that mean that she could be in charge of Voyager. In that case I won't have to demote her.

Why would I compare?

I have DS9. And now DSC for my enjoyment and SNW, and others. I like them all for different reasons. No competition.

Personally I like TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY. They are all great.
I don't compare them, there is something I like in all of them.

 

[fireproof78]

Does that mean that she could be in charge of Voyager. In that case I won't have to demote her.

Yes, that's how flag officer mission commanders can work. Usually overseeing a whole task force, but they can take over a ship's command if the mission calls for it.

Personally I like TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY. They are all great.
I don't compare them, there is something I like in all of them.

Funny. I feel the same about TOS, DSC, SNW, LD, PIC and PRO.

There is something I like in all of them.