Federation Klingon war?

[GalaxyClass1701]

1. Does any Lit feature it?

2. Was there ever really an all out war if so when? We have the conflict that led to the Orgainian peace treaty and the stuff from DS9 but was there ever really a full blown out war?

 

[DarKush]

1. The only one I know of is the Way of the Warrior novelization. I thought the DS9 book Heart of the Warrior covered that period, but checking Memory Beta it appears it didn't.

2. Canonically speaking, I think those instances you mentioned are pretty much it. Which is a missed opportunity on the part of Trek so far. I find it hard to believe that the Klingons would never challenge Earth or the Federation outside of those two events. There is lot of space to throw a war in there, without messing up canon too much (2156-2265). It would be dicier but another war could take place between 2293-2364. Though I doubt that would ever be attempted since there has never been a mention in any of the 24th century series and I think that would've been mentioned, especially with all of the Klingon-centric stories in TNG and DS9. Despite those hurdles I would love to see a war thrown in there at some point, perhaps in the early years of the Federation.

 

[F. King Daniel]

FASA's Trek RPG timeline included "The Four Years War" between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, during Captain April's tenure in command of the Enterprise. It's where Captain Garth became famous.

I know several old novels referenced Spaceflight Chronology/FASA events (particularly SFC's Vulcan/human first contact in Strangers From the Sky) but I don't think the Federation/Klingon war was among them.

 

[captcalhoun]

there was also the Battle of Donatu V which resulted in a stalemate, IIRC, which took place 20 years prior to The Trouble With Tribbles.

and Spock mentions 'seventy years of unremitting hostility' in TUC which suggests some shit went down to make relations between the UFP and the Klingons worse.

 

[ryan123450]

Wasn't there a brief war between Star Trek II and Star Trek III in the DC comics? Haven't read them yet.

 

[Jakks]

FASA's Trek RPG timeline included "The Four Years War" between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, during Captain April's tenure in command of the Enterprise. It's where Captain Garth became famous.

I know several old novels referenced Spaceflight Chronology/FASA events (particularly SFC's Vulcan/human first contact in Strangers From the Sky) but I don't think the Federation/Klingon war was among them.

I think this (The Four Years War/FASA) is where a lot of the belief that there was a full blown war between the UFP and Klingons comes from.

At the time, I fully embraced it...hell, it made a lot of sense actually given the blatant hostility of the Klingons. I can't imagen (given how the Klingons have always been portrayed in ST) that they would not go to war with a large exspansiest 'empire' as a neigbor...if for no other reason then to establish territorial boundaries.

 

[JD]

I think a full out war with the Klingons would make sense in between ENT and TOS. It would go a long way towards explaining why the seemed to hate each other so much more in TOS than they did in ENT.

 

[Timo]

On the other hand, since the Klingons are a "warrior culture", they might not believe in the concept of war. That is, they would have no reason to believe in the concept of peace, so there would be nothing to distinguish war. It just wouldn't occur to a Klingon to declare war on an enemy, when he could simply go fight him instead.

Thus, there would be a constant state of war between the Klingon Empire and the United Federation of Planets - from the latter's point of view. The Emperor's empty seat would not recognize the state of war, and would be satisfied with the fact that the Houses were attacking the Federation often enough to keep up the pressure. That's what seems to have been happening during much of the 24th century, with the Klingon "allies" constantly raiding UFP installations as per "Aquiel".

"Whom Gods Destroy" makes it sound as if the UFP was in a war fairly recently, yet "Errand of Mercy" makes it look like Kirk never faced Klingons in battle. The Four Years War fits that particular bill by making the Klingons the aggressors in a fight that involved Garth of Izar but was over by the time Kirk was making an impact in Starfleet. But other things could fit the data, too, including a timeline where the UFP and the Klingon Empire never declared war on each other.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DarKush]

^
Interesting perspective, though I'm not inclined to agree. I think the Klingons had a relatable sense of war and peace, as evidenced by their threats to go full scale on Earth during the Augment crisis, their provocations during TOS, their occassional threats on TNG, and then finally going to war on DS9.

I'm definitely on the side of those that want a Klingon War between ENT and TOS. It would go a lot toward stoking the hatreds and suspicions on both sides. And it would seem logical that the Klingons would go to war, if nothing else to prove they could beat Earth when the Romulans couldn't (just joking). Though a nice war should be slid in there wouldn't upset continuity two much would it?

A Klingon War with Garth of Izar playing a prominent role would be kickass.

 

[Therin of Andor]

A Klingon War with Garth of Izar playing a prominent role would be kickass.

Ick. More war.

"Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before."

 

[wahwahkits]

A Klingon War with Garth of Izar playing a prominent role would be kickass.

Ick. More war.

"Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before."

Spot on

 

[Fer]

A Klingon War with Garth of Izar playing a prominent role would be kickass.

Ick. More war.

"Space: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before."

Good point. While on the one hand I have to confess the idea intrigues me as an untold point of Trek history, I do have to agree that the between the Dominion War, Destiny, the Enterprise Romulan War books and the Star Trek Online book I feel there's been enough war in Trek for a while. And we did have the whole war between the Federation and the Klingons in DS9.

And as to it explaining the animosity between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, we had just as much animosity going on during the Cold War between the US and the USSR, and we never went to war against each other. Heck, that's the only reason the Klingons were invented to begin with!

 

[Christopher]

And as to it explaining the animosity between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, we had just as much animosity going on during the Cold War between the US and the USSR, and we never went to war against each other. Heck, that's the only reason the Klingons were invented to begin with!

Good point. There are lots of different ways in which nations and societies can clash with each other besides shooting wars. And we've had shooting wars already in Trek, onscreen and in the literature. What's to be gained by rehashing the same old trope? Couldn't there be more interesting ways of exploring the history of Federation-Klingon relations?

 

[DarKush]

^
With the Klingons being a heavily martial culture that reveres war the idea of a Federation-Klingon War makes sense. In fact, the idea of a Klingon-Earth conflict made more sense on ENT than a war with the Romulans, from what we saw on the show. The Klingon War on DS9 didn't get that much focus so I don't think we've seen a full on war. It was used as a run-up, whetting our appetites for the Dominion War. The Klingon War was short and got short shrift.

What's to be gained by writing about a longer Klingon War? Hopefully some good stories. And perhaps the challenge of taking a familiar trope and doing something fresh with it. Also, the joy of filling in some Trek history, if the war took place in some of the aforementioned projected timeframes.

 

[Christopher]

^
With the Klingons being a heavily martial culture that reveres war the idea of a Federation-Klingon War makes sense.

"Makes sense" or "is obvious?" Why settle for the obvious?

"Errand of Mercy" does have Kirk describing the Klingons as a culture for whom war is a way of life, but does that mean the UFP was fighting with the Klingons, or that the UFP was trying to intervene diplomatically while the Klingons waged war against other, neighboring worlds? Or that they were walking a Cold-War tightrope trying to limit Klingon power and expansion without pushing them into an open war that the Federation couldn't afford? There are many possibilities. And historically Star Trek has done more stories about avoiding or ending wars than waging them.

In fact, the idea of a Klingon-Earth conflict made more sense on ENT than a war with the Romulans, from what we saw on the show.

Does it? The Klingons had their clashes with Archer, but it didn't seem they were as dedicated to large-scale expansionism and conquest as the Romulans were, certainly not in such a focused way. My impression of the ENT-era Klingons is of a smaller power, one that hadn't expanded very far yet despite being only four days' warp travel from Earth -- or at least was fairly easily prevented from expanding in our direction by the presence of the Vulcans. They were martially oriented as a culture, but the Romulans seemed to be a more organized, determined threat.

The Klingon War on DS9 didn't get that much focus so I don't think we've seen a full on war. It was used as a run-up, whetting our appetites for the Dominion War. The Klingon War was short and got short shrift.

Good. The shorter the war, the better. The Dominion War went on a season too long, if you ask me. They should've ended it after the sixth season and devoted the seventh season to the more interesting story of dealing with the aftermath and consequences of the war.

And perhaps the challenge of taking a familiar trope and doing something fresh with it.

It's been done so many times in recent years that I don't see the point in going back to the well so soon.

Also, the joy of filling in some Trek history, if the war took place in some of the aforementioned projected timeframes.

The word "joy" does not belong in the same sentence with the word "war." War is the ugliest thing imaginable. Surely there must be more fulfilling things to fill in that history with than just a lot more bloodshed and death and pain and horror. There's been more than enough of that already. Star Trek is supposed to be a better future, a future we'd want to live in. It's valid to include the occasional dark time as an exception to the rule, if there's a good enough story reason for it. But it shouldn't be overdone. Too much war and disaster and Star Trek ceases to become a desirable future. And then it would be no different from all the gazillion other boring sci-fi dystopias out there.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

Before Enterprise came along, it was said that there was that disasterous first contact, when many lives were lost. After that and until TOS, there were probably tons of minor engagements during the Cold War, but probably not full scale war. All those incidents and diametrically opposed cultures, in addition to rivalry, would cause much animosity between the two without there needing to be a full scale war.

 

[Christopher]

Before Enterprise came along, it was said that there was that disasterous first contact, when many lives were lost.

Not quite.

http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/189.htm

PICARD: ...Centuries ago, a disastrous contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war.

Hmm. I think I may need to concede the overall argument here. Picard did say "war." Although maybe he's exaggerating, since I doubt either civilization would've survived decades of continuous war. Maybe there was on-and-off war -- like I suggested above, something like the Cardassians where there's ongoing hostility that occasionally erupts into open conflict.

But Picard didn't say that many lives were lost in the contact. And technically he didn't say it was a first contact.

Come to think of it... he didn't specifically say it was humanity's contact with the Klingons that led to war. Maybe he meant the Denobulans or the Bolians, for all we can tell from his actual words. So there's still a good deal of wiggle room here.

 

[captcalhoun]

since ENT, i've assumed it was Vulcan first contact. given their familiarity with Klingons in Broken Bow.

 

[DarKush]

RE: Christopher,

Apologies, but I never have figured out how to do the multiple quote/reply thing. You made some good rejoinders to my previous post. I chalk up our differences to one of opinion.

I think 'settling' for the obvious is okay if it comes across as logical, and the Klingons have generally been portrayed as bellicose in every Trek incarnation. So a war with Earth or the Federation could be a logical course of action for the Klingons based on what we have seen of them.

We saw some Klingon expansionism with the Arin'Sen in the ENT episode Judgment. Granted, the Romulans had designs on Vulcan in the Reformation arc, but I can't say that expansion was their goal in the Babel arc. It could just as well have been them keeping potential rivals divided and weaker.

And I could see the Federation not wanting war as you laid out, but the Klingons bringing it to them, if nothing else as a test of honor, not to mention fears about the Federation's potential power and expansion.

I personally wish a bit more focus had been on the DS9 Klingon War. So much had been made of Klingon martial prowess but DS9 sort of made them look a bit incompetent, weak, or ineffectual, except for "Nor the Battle the Strong," and even in that episode Jake Sisko's blind shot stopped them. I wish we had at least seen some war episodes that treated the Klingons in a better light during the Federation War. We got some of that with Kor's final episode, but I wish we had gotten that earlier. I chalk up the poor depiction of the Klingon's military capabilities, in universe, to scars left over from the Klingon Civil War and perhaps a drift into stagnation as a result of relative peace with the Federation and Romulans. As far as we know, the Klingons didn't have any big enemies to fight in decades until the Cardassians on DS9. The best Klingon War outing we got was the alternate timeline from "Yesterday's Enterprise."

Some people are tired of sci-fi war stories and some people can't get enough of them. I mean, what tropes for much of fiction aren't familiar or probably overdone?

The term joy was not referring to war itself, which I agree is a horrific thing. It was referring to the interest in Trek history that such series like Lost Era cover. I like the filling in of the dots and I am sure that I am not the only fan that does. And I am sure that there have to be writers that like it too. And war despite being horrible in real life, also provides a potential large stage on which to explore all manner of the human condition, from the most noble to the most despicable. And I have to wonder if the dramatic potential is what has sci-fi shows and books returning the war theme. Even TOS and TNG often raised the specter of war without going there, because they knew the impact on audiences.

I think Trek is big enough to deal with all aspects of the human condition. I'm not opposed nor uninterested in stories about exploration or peace, though I also wouldn't mind seeing a Klingon War book or miniseries.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I think the Klingons had a relatable sense of war and peace, as evidenced by their threats to go full scale on Earth during the Augment crisis, their provocations during TOS, their occassional threats on TNG, and then finally going to war on DS9.

Or at least a relatable sense of war and non-war (or, perhaps, subwar?), if not actually "peace". The Klingons most likely think they're honouring your glorious fighters when they launch a sudden raid or spill their internal feuds into your territory. That's just sport. Then there's war, the true, official, test of the combatant, which is still sporting in the sense of "we'll sing songs of your courage over your grave, noble enemy". Finally there's "you have insulted our honour" war, the full-on "no more jolly old Klingon" war, where someone (Romulans, Humans) has soiled the affair by behaving dishonourably. This war is perhaps more a duty than entertainment. Maybe that's why Klingons can be so surly - war is supposed to be fun, but these PetaQ are beneath it and you have to kill them as a matter of honour. It just makes it an obligation, and sucks all the real joy out of it?