Dukat's Character Arc

[Maj. Dick]

As much as I love DS9, the one thing that always intensly bothered me was the handling of my favorite character Gul Dukat, in season 7. His character progression was so natural, and to me his best moment was in the episode Waltz. He seemingly rips his mask off and admits that he never cared about the lives of bajorans and wished he was worse to them. He even tells sisko that he's glad for making him embrace his true repulsive feelings. With the season finale of season 6 (Tears of the Prophets) he tells Damar that he doesn't blame him for killing Dukat's daughter (Even though he did) and that he blames Sisko and wants to "destroy him." He then involves himself in this bizzare plotline with the pah wraiths, which as a concept didn't bother me, but why were they involving 2 plotlines that had absolutly nothong to do with one another? To me the worst season of DS9 is arguably season 7 because every single scene with my favorite character is brainless and boring. You essentially watch him for several episodes either cuddle with kai winn or try to read a book. How riveting. When he finally summons the demon monster's in the fire cave, it feels like a three dimensional show has turned into something more simplistic than even star wars or super heroes (Even the effects of the fight look laughably awful). I felt like they ruined Dukats character and his conclusion with Sisko by taking the 2 most realized, interesting, and dynamic characters and reducing them to 'good guy and bad guy." Did this plotline bother the hell out of anyone else? I almost never see anyone talk about this blatant character assassination and lazy writing, everyone just says how the finale is so amazing. Thoughts?

 

[Tomalak]

It's a view many people share and have expressed over the years.

Personally, it worked for me. As you say, Waltz sees the broken Dukat vow to take revenge on Bajor, and the next time we see him, he does just that by aligning himself with Bajor's Devil.

He continues the other theme from Waltz of measuring himself against Sisko by becoming the Pah-Wraith's Emissary. He is possessed by one, and afterwards tries to lead a Pah-Wraith cult (attempting to initiate his own Jonestown), before ultimately undertaking his madcap plan to release them from the Fire Caves so that they can defeat the Prophets and he can rule the ashes of Bajor.

Needless to say, he's completely nuts by that point.

The Prophets thread of DS9 had always been the most divisive aspect of the show. Emissary directly ties to What You Leave Behind through that arc, and it is integral to Sisko's character. The attempt to tie Dukat into that as Sisko's nemesis, also established in Emissary, makes sense.

Could they have done it differently? The obvious one would have been essentially giving him Damar's role, continuing his record of veering between villain and semi-ally by turning on Weyoun and the Dominion, and dying in heroic self-sacrifice.

But the writers didn't want to do that, that's why they created and developed Damar. They felt Dukat was irredeemable, and would ultimately lead to his own self-destruction.

 

[1001001]

Moving to DS9

 

[NCC-73515]

I didn't find Waltz very interesting. Dukat was a great villain before, now he's just going insane. There's no reasoning, no good dialogue, nothing you can do with someone as crazy as he was in Waltz. But masquerading as a Bajoran and making their leader literally sleep with the enemy was a return to disgrace

 

[Maj. Dick]

I didn't find Waltz very interesting. Dukat was a great villain before, now he's just going insane. There's no reasoning, no good dialogue, nothing you can do with someone as crazy as he was in Waltz. But masquerading as a Bajoran and making their leader literally sleep with the enemy was a return to disgrace

I think you should rewatch the ending of the episode. Yes a lot of it is hallucinations but the point is that his craziness breaks away his mask until the ending. At the end he is less so crazy and more so finally being honest

 

[Tosk]

I'm just glad that so far no one has pulled out the tired old "mustache twirling" complaint.

 

[Tomalak]

That was Gul Macet!

 

[AntonyF]

I did prefer him when he was more nuanced for sure. The writers got annoyed with viewers liking him too much and wanted to remind us he's a Villain™. And yes he was with the occupation of Bajor, but you can't blame viewers for judging him on the here and now that we see as a viewer.

And the cooperation between Sisko and Dukat for example through first the Maquis stories then the Klingon invasion showed a man who very Cardassian but not particularly evil.

I don't hate the story at the end, but it does feel contrived so I'm not a huge fan. If they were going to do it I'd like to have seen the Winn/Dukat story brought forward and fleshed out.

I did think rewatching Waltz, how much is Sisko to blame for Dukat's becoming further insane? Dukat had been under medical care and was clearly deranged... and Sisko basically goaded him and goaded him into a fury that then led to him wanting to destroy Bajor, Sisko and whatever else. Was it revealing a deep secret from within Dukat, or did it help create it?

 

[Tomalak]

What other option did Sisko have? Dukat was trapping him there and lied about the distress call.

 

[Maj. Dick]

I did prefer him when he was more nuanced for sure. The writers got annoyed with viewers liking him too much and wanted to remind us he's a Villain™. And yes he was with the occupation of Bajor, but you can't blame viewers for judging him on the hear and now that we see as a viewer.

And the cooperation between Sisko and Dukat for example through first the Maquis stories then the Klingon invasion showed a man who very Cardassian but not particularly evil.

I don't hate the story at the end, but it does feel contrived so I'm not a huge fan. If they were going to do it I'd like to have seen the Winn/Dukat story brought forward and fleshed out.

I did think rewatching Waltz, how much is Sisko to blame for Dukat's becoming further insane? Dukat had been under medical care and was clearly deranged... and Sisko basically goaded him and goaded him into a fury that then led to him wanting to destroy Bajor, Sisko and whatever else. Was it revealing a deep secret from within Dukat, or did it help create it?

Exactly what happened, but in writing that's still a problem and usually character assassination. There's a big difference between course correcting and changing the intention with the character based on hindsight (Joker 2) and further elaborating on a character the audience genuinely misunderstood the intentions of (Dune Messiah). It is almost never good to write reactively especially if there was a plan or a natural progression.

 

[Maj. Dick]

I did prefer him when he was more nuanced for sure. The writers got annoyed with viewers liking him too much and wanted to remind us he's a Villain™. And yes he was with the occupation of Bajor, but you can't blame viewers for judging him on the hear and now that we see as a viewer.

And the cooperation between Sisko and Dukat for example through first the Maquis stories then the Klingon invasion showed a man who very Cardassian but not particularly evil.

I don't hate the story at the end, but it does feel contrived so I'm not a huge fan. If they were going to do it I'd like to have seen the Winn/Dukat story brought forward and fleshed out.

I did think rewatching Waltz, how much is Sisko to blame for Dukat's becoming further insane? Dukat had been under medical care and was clearly deranged... and Sisko basically goaded him and goaded him into a fury that then led to him wanting to destroy Bajor, Sisko and whatever else. Was it revealing a deep secret from within Dukat, or did it help create it?

Also with your last point, I think most people that defend the end of Gul Dukats story fundamentally misunderstand the ending of Waltz. It's not as black and white as "Im crazy and im gonna go blow up bajor." It was a clear headed full admission of guilt, and acceptance that he is who he is and no longer cares about changing how others see him. In a way, Waltz really could have been the last Dukat episode because it completes his character arc. The conclusion of the episode is not about Dukat giving into madness and becoming overt supervillain that wants to blow everyone up. He's admitting he has zero regard for the lives of others and the things he's done. When he's ranting and making further threats to bajor he's saying that he would do all his past misdeeds all over again and could do worse. He then thanks Sisko, not because he's "crazy", but because he finally made him destroy his sociopathic insecurities and finally be honest with himself.

 

[Maj. Dick]

What other option did Sisko have? Dukat was trapping him there and lied about the distress call.

I think the main issue here is the storyline makes no sense for the character. His arc is fully realized at the end of Waltz. We never needed to see him ever again. To have him come back in a storyline that makes no sense for that kind of character, and have him behave in ways that completely contradict his entire arc makes me believe they really should have just made a new character. Even then, I wouldn't completely buy the idea that in star trek there would be people that essentially worship the devil. There is no one to one connection that a sociopath (Dukat) would make a deal with the devil. Isn't the entire point that he wants to be the top of the food chain? That whole story made him look small and like a follower, which he never was. I was ok with the Jim Jones cult episode because that did feel more in line with Dukats behavior, but it was still taking giant step backwards from his realized conclusion in Waltz. The silver lining is at least they messed with his character after he had completed his story. If Waltz never happened, it would have been much worse.

 

[AntonyF]

What other option did Sisko have? Dukat was trapping him there and lied about the distress call.

If I were injured and in a cave with a mad man I'd try to placate him. Getting him angry not my first choice.

 

[Tosk]

No offense, but you are no Benjamin Sisko.

 

[Tomalak]

If I were injured and in a cave with a mad man I'd try to placate him. Getting him angry not my first choice.

That's what he did do at first. He flattered Dukat, thanked him for saving him etc.

Dukat got angry because the voices of Kira and Weyoun in his head were mocking and belittling him, not particularly because of anything Sisko did.

 

[Farscape One]

Regarding "WALTZ"...

I felt it was a natural progression with Dukat because of his extreme narcissistic nature. The "Kira", "Weyoun", and "Damar" that we see all essentially push him, in their own ways, toward moving past the need of getting appreciation or respect or acceptance from Sisko. (And, by extension, everyone else.)


Regarding "COVENANT"...

He was all about himself and his power. Even going back as far as early season 2, in "CARDASSIANS", Dukat was all about himself... just look at the lengths he went to in order to get rid of a political rival. Even though he claimed to have felt the love of the pah-wraiths, he still had the need to be in power and adored. His ego was just too large to not take advantage of the opportunity of having a cult under his command. Not to mention he just cannot resist the urge to have a Bajoran mistress on hand while in power. (He had at least 3 that we know about... Kira Meru, Tora Naprem, and Mika. Arguably four, since in "THINGS PAST" we saw Dukat took Dax thinking she was a Bajoran he could have, and since that scenario is based on Odo's memories, this is at least possible.)


Regarding Dukat with Winn...

They were both power hungry opportunists. They were using each other.

 

[Tomalak]

Covenant is a direct response to Waltz. In the latter, he says Bajorans should have been grateful for him, but they rejected him. So he sets himself up on a copy of Deep Space Nine and poses as their Emissary with a group of servile Bajorans who worship him.

SISKO: So, why do you think they didn't appreciate this rare opportunity you were offering them?

DUKAT: Because they were blind, ignorant fools. If only they had cooperated with us, we could have turned their world into a paradise. From the moment we arrived on Bajor, it was clear that we were the superior race. But they couldn't accept that. They wanted to be treated as equals when they most certainly were not. Militarily, technologically, culturally, we were almost a century ahead of them in every way. We did not choose to be the superior race. Fate handed us our role. And it would've been so much easier on everyone if the Bajorans had simply accepted their role. But no, day after day they clustered in their temples and prayed for deliverance, and night after night they planted bombs outside of our homes. Pride. Stubborn, unyielding pride. From the servant girl that cleaned my quarters to the condemned man toiling in a labour camp to the terrorist skulking through the hills of Dahkur Province. They all wore their pride like some twisted badge of honour.

SISKO: And you hated them for it.

DUKAT: Of course I hated them! I hated everything about them! Their superstitions and their cries for sympathy, their treachery and their lies, their smug superiority and their stiff necked obstinacy, their earrings and their broken wrinkled noses.

SISKO: You should have killed them all.

DUKAT: Yes! Yes! That's right, isn't it? (his companions nod) I knew it! I've always known it! I should have killed every last one of them. I should have turned their planet into a graveyard the likes of which the galaxy had never seen! I should have killed them all.

And then his parting words, which sets up his alliance with the Pah-Wraiths.

DUKAT: I'm so glad we had this time together, Benjamin, because we won't be seeing each other for a while. I have unfinished business on Bajor. They thought I was their enemy? They don't know what it is to be my enemy, but they will. From this day forward, Bajor is dead. All of Bajor. And this time, even their Emissary won't be able to save them.

 

[NCC-73515]

I think you should rewatch the ending of the episode. Yes a lot of it is hallucinations but the point is that his craziness breaks away his mask until the ending. At the end he is less so crazy and more so finally being honest

4-5 times is enough for me
A cunning shady sleazy complex multi-layered villain is much more interesting to me than a mad shouting crazy one

 

[Lynx]

I have mixed emotions when it comes to this.

First of all, I see Dukat as maybe the best villain ever in Star Trek.

Second, I see Dukat and Garak as two of the most interesting characters ever in Star Trek.

Why?
Because they are both in a "grayzone" betweeen being good or evil which makes them unpredictable and exciting.

There were times when I wondered if Dukat would go over to "the good side" during the series, like when he and Kira rescued Ziyal from that Breen labor camp and Dukat decided to let Ziyal live instead of killing her off, as he had planned from the beginning.

There were also times when I wondered if Garak would turn into a villain.

That's what made them both so interesting. Also the conflict between them.

Not to mention that I find Cardassians being the best villains ever in Star Trek for the same reason. They are unpredictable and therefore exciting.

When it comes to Dukat, I have mixed emotions about what happened after Waltz. Sometimes it was too much "over the top" by turning Star Trek's best villain into a total maniac. I would rather have the cunning, unpredictable Dukat from the earlier seasons.

But I don't find the scenario totally bad. As it is, I don't know if I could come up with something better if I had the chance to go back in time and change the script.

I actually like the episode Covenant with Dukat as a 24th century Jim Jones.

Not to mention that I would love to have the painting from that episode with Dukat as some sort of a prophet on my wall.

And wasn't he and Kai Winn a beautiful couple?

As for season 7, I really like it.

 

[fireproof78]

Covenant is a direct response to Waltz. In the latter, he says Bajorans should have been grateful for him, but they rejected him. So he sets himself up on a copy of Deep Space Nine and poses as their Emissary with a group of servile Bajorans who worship him.



And then his parting words, which sets up his alliance with the Pah-Wraiths.

I never had a problem with Dukat's transformation. He does see himself as the greatest leader of the Bajoran people, and even says so to Weyoun. He has a twisted view of both reality and himself and Waltz just showcases all the different beliefs cycling in his head.

Him going nuts, especially after Waltz and Ziyal's death, seems inevitable. I have no issue with it. I think it hems closer to realistic for people in Star Trek to eventually go crazy rather than just soldiering on as if nothing traumatic has ever happened to them.