The wine (called The Magistrate) that I'm not-so-coincidentally drinking with tonight's season finale...
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Spoilers Daredevil: Born Again discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
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The wine (called The Magistrate) that I'm not-so-coincidentally drinking with tonight's season finale...
Post credit scene!
They were stepping through the fourth wall a bit there. It’s nominally about countering Fisk’s takeover, of course, but it’s pretty clearly about a certain similar real-life situation. The “army” is the audience.
I hoped when the episode was midway through that it would conclude with the immediate crisis unresolved. And while the ending wasn't a cliffhanger in the strictest of traditional senses, it did leave the city under a new world order. The Kingpin has taken full control of the city with vigilantism not only deemed illegal, but anyone who commits any act of civil disobedience is under the threat of murder from Punisher cops and then called vigilantes. The Kingpin openly murdered the police commissioner in front of other cops (in the most graphic moment of the new series to date) and no one blinked an eye. Frank Castle, Jack Duquesne, and other dissonants are held in cages. Although why at least Frank is left alive is purely plot armor...and sure enough, he's already escaping...
Frank's return wasn't a surprise, nor was the reason why he came to Red's rescue: Karen. I always figured she would return in the finale and I'm glad it wasn't a glorified cameo (which I initially figured it would be). She played a significant part of the story, not just as the bridge between the two unlikely heroes, but also as a means of reconnecting to Foggy and the case that set off the current set of events. Her absence this season has been sorely missed and I was deeply relieved she immediately helped Matt begin to reconnect to his humanity, right when he needed it. He came very close to going over the edge (with Frank's urging) and I'm glad she was able bring Matt back from the brink.
As for Daredevil's small army, I really, really hoped Brett Mahoney was among them but I was nonetheless unsurprised that the only familiar faces were Cherry (who oddly still doesn't have a first name...) and Angie Kim. I'm holding onto hope he is among them in season two...
Speaking of armies, I know it's a long shot, but this is the perfect time to reunite the Defenders (including Misty and Colleen!). Pleaseandthankyou.
Frank's return wasn't a surprise, nor was the reason why he came to Red's rescue: Karen. I always figured she would return in the finale and I'm glad it wasn't a glorified cameo (which I initially figured it would be). She played a significant part of the story, not just as the bridge between the two unlikely heroes, but also as a means of reconnecting to Foggy and the case that set off the current set of events. Her absence this season has been sorely missed and I was deeply relieved she immediately helped Matt begin to reconnect to his humanity, right when he needed it. He came very close to going over the edge (with Frank's urging) and I'm glad she was able bring Matt back from the brink.
As for Daredevil's small army, I really, really hoped Brett Mahoney was among them but I was nonetheless unsurprised that the only familiar faces were Cherry (who oddly still doesn't have a first name...) and Angie Kim. I'm holding onto hope he is among them in season two...
Speaking of armies, I know it's a long shot, but this is the perfect time to reunite the Defenders (including Misty and Colleen!). Pleaseandthankyou.
Overall, I thought that was a great finale. Excepting a minor issue I have with Matt's part of the ending, namely that I just felt like Karen dragged him into things and he didn't really take any agency in setting up his "army," this was some strong stuff.
First, I'm gonna toot my own horn. I was actually pretty damn close with my Vanessa theory from back after episode 1. Like about 80% on the money. Go me! Not going to lie though, that scene between Vanessa and Dex is the most chilling this version of Vanessa has ever been. She's as smoothly manipulative as her husband in her own way. She enjoys being Queen and will not be easily pried from her throne.
Points for making Dex's return to Bullseye tragic. He doesn't even really want to be out, Vanessa basically forces it on him. I'm sure that won't come back to bite everybody in the backside at some point. We're in the weird place of Bullseye being neither team DD nor team Fisk in s2. Just a renegade wild card who makes everybody's life hell. *chef's kiss*
It seems like the creatives took the claims that they would "Disney-fy" the Netflix show a little bit personally. "Fisk smashed a guy's head in a car door on that show, right? Here, hold our beer!" Wow. Violence for violence's sake is very on brand for Fisk, but wow. And they pulled no punches with Frank, either.
Speaking of Frank, he and Matt are like Marvel's version of Lethal Weapon. The action and banter were on point. And they even called out the not-quite-a love triangle with Karen! Woll's Karen feels a lot more emotionally bold and secure here than she often did in the Netflix series, but it really works with her grounding Matt and Frank to their respective humanity. I missed her tremendously and it was a delight to have her back on my screen. "I'm glad you're back," indeed. Couldn't have said it better myself, Mr. Murdock.
How do you take a character like Wilson Fisk, who has been portrayed as a clever, highly dangerous manipulator when he's not being a violent and domineering physical force, to the next level? Like this. This character is utterly terrifying (and that's even leaving out the real world parallels I'd rather not think about). For all his talk early in the season about becoming a better man, this is Wilson Fisk utterly unchained. There are absolutely some parallels with his scheme in Netflix S3, which just means it fits him well.
And, sure enough, Heather goes team Fisk at the end. I knew I didn't like her. It will be interesting to see if Matt is able to get through to her in season 2, or if she'll ultimately become another victim of her new boss.
This was some strong stuff, with a great set up for season 2. But, let's be real, if we don't get at least Jessica and/or Luke out of this set up I'm going to be mighty disappointed. Hell, let's go all out with the New Defenders. Matt, Frank, Jessica, Luke and Maya. I'd watch the heck out of that.
First, I'm gonna toot my own horn. I was actually pretty damn close with my Vanessa theory from back after episode 1. Like about 80% on the money. Go me! Not going to lie though, that scene between Vanessa and Dex is the most chilling this version of Vanessa has ever been. She's as smoothly manipulative as her husband in her own way. She enjoys being Queen and will not be easily pried from her throne.
Points for making Dex's return to Bullseye tragic. He doesn't even really want to be out, Vanessa basically forces it on him. I'm sure that won't come back to bite everybody in the backside at some point. We're in the weird place of Bullseye being neither team DD nor team Fisk in s2. Just a renegade wild card who makes everybody's life hell. *chef's kiss*
It seems like the creatives took the claims that they would "Disney-fy" the Netflix show a little bit personally. "Fisk smashed a guy's head in a car door on that show, right? Here, hold our beer!" Wow. Violence for violence's sake is very on brand for Fisk, but wow. And they pulled no punches with Frank, either.
Speaking of Frank, he and Matt are like Marvel's version of Lethal Weapon. The action and banter were on point. And they even called out the not-quite-a love triangle with Karen! Woll's Karen feels a lot more emotionally bold and secure here than she often did in the Netflix series, but it really works with her grounding Matt and Frank to their respective humanity. I missed her tremendously and it was a delight to have her back on my screen. "I'm glad you're back," indeed. Couldn't have said it better myself, Mr. Murdock.
How do you take a character like Wilson Fisk, who has been portrayed as a clever, highly dangerous manipulator when he's not being a violent and domineering physical force, to the next level? Like this. This character is utterly terrifying (and that's even leaving out the real world parallels I'd rather not think about). For all his talk early in the season about becoming a better man, this is Wilson Fisk utterly unchained. There are absolutely some parallels with his scheme in Netflix S3, which just means it fits him well.
And, sure enough, Heather goes team Fisk at the end. I knew I didn't like her. It will be interesting to see if Matt is able to get through to her in season 2, or if she'll ultimately become another victim of her new boss.
This was some strong stuff, with a great set up for season 2. But, let's be real, if we don't get at least Jessica and/or Luke out of this set up I'm going to be mighty disappointed. Hell, let's go all out with the New Defenders. Matt, Frank, Jessica, Luke and Maya. I'd watch the heck out of that.
By all rights, the team should also include Peter and Kamala, but those two cannot be in the show, obviously.
And Doctor Strange probably has more important cosmic magic stuff to do?
Who else is currently based in New York? Kate Bishop? I could see Kate maybe... Could give her a little bit of an edge... And she has a personal connection to Swordsman who is currently in a bit of a pickle.
(Although I don't expect Frank to leave anybody behind.)
Great finale with only a few minor criticisms.
Let's get the critics out - the violence was over the top in a cartoon almost Tarantino style way with the huge blood spurts. The violence, while bloody, in Daredevil and Punisher always felt more real than general Marvel violence because it carried cost with the actors, here they overshot the target by a little.
Avocados at Law - way to twist the knife again. I still don't appreciate it, will never like it and will never forgive them for killing one of the best characters of the show.
Everything else was really awesome and felt like Daredevil is back where he used to be. Too bad it's at the tail end of a rather mediocre season ( or half season if we regard both Marvel seasons as one big project the way it was filmed and originally planned). You can clearly see how much the show has been dragged down by the first failed attempt and in hindsight it's ok to see how they still managed to develop the big story that led to this finale, without it the season would have barely gotten a 6 from me, now it's a solid 7.
I love in what place they left the show, this was a great setup for what i now hope is a return to form for Daredevil and i wonder how that will play out. Daredevil's "army" is at best a small team but as more things come to light it may grow. It will be interesting to see if season 2 will include some proper heroes aka vigilantes like the Defenders or even homegrown New York based heroes like Kate Bishop ( though she is completely Marvel style and might be jarring to be in the different Daredevil style). Who knows, maybe they'll build some completely new heroes to be at Matt#s side.
Given the season finale i am now looking forward to it, that felt different a couple of weeks ago.
Let's get the critics out - the violence was over the top in a cartoon almost Tarantino style way with the huge blood spurts. The violence, while bloody, in Daredevil and Punisher always felt more real than general Marvel violence because it carried cost with the actors, here they overshot the target by a little.
Avocados at Law - way to twist the knife again. I still don't appreciate it, will never like it and will never forgive them for killing one of the best characters of the show.
Everything else was really awesome and felt like Daredevil is back where he used to be. Too bad it's at the tail end of a rather mediocre season ( or half season if we regard both Marvel seasons as one big project the way it was filmed and originally planned). You can clearly see how much the show has been dragged down by the first failed attempt and in hindsight it's ok to see how they still managed to develop the big story that led to this finale, without it the season would have barely gotten a 6 from me, now it's a solid 7.
I love in what place they left the show, this was a great setup for what i now hope is a return to form for Daredevil and i wonder how that will play out. Daredevil's "army" is at best a small team but as more things come to light it may grow. It will be interesting to see if season 2 will include some proper heroes aka vigilantes like the Defenders or even homegrown New York based heroes like Kate Bishop ( though she is completely Marvel style and might be jarring to be in the different Daredevil style). Who knows, maybe they'll build some completely new heroes to be at Matt#s side.
Given the season finale i am now looking forward to it, that felt different a couple of weeks ago.
Not a bad ending. But all felt like set up for season two when what I really wanted was some more closure for the season I watched and was invested in. But that's kinda on me since season 1 and 2 was supposed to be just season 1 originally. I should have expected it.
And the violence was one step too far for me. I've watched worse violent things in movies and series but I didn't think it needed to go there with Fisk. What's left unseen has always been more powerful.
And the violence was one step too far for me. I've watched worse violent things in movies and series but I didn't think it needed to go there with Fisk. What's left unseen has always been more powerful.
I loved that reveal. I almost feel sympathetic towards Dex because now both of the Fisks have manipulated him left and right for their own purposes, without any genuine concern for his well being and needs. Like you said, he's a renegade wild card for next season and I'm curious to see where his broken mind will lead him next.
This is how you do a love triangle. Granted, those scenes are heavily built upon the original show's development of their relationships, but I was nonetheless impressed by the level of subtlety of those scenes regarding their romantic feelings for each other.
Considering her pointed comments to Matt about masks and vigilantes last week, I wasn't surprised by her decision to join Fisk's administration, but the moment still hurt. I'm really looking forward to that dynamic next season, how Matt reacts to it, and how Heather reacts to when she inevitably discovers Matt's secret (and hopefully not from Fisk himself, but rather by her own deduction).
Damn, I shamefully forgot all about Maya for my dream team. That said, even though she has history with Fisk, the last time we saw her, she was living happily in Oklahoma having resolved her issues with him. I don't think she has any reason to be drawn back to Manhattan for this particular fight.
Which is why I immediately thought of the perfect timing for reuniting The Defenders (and including Misty and Colleen). The core nature for all of them is their love for the city (okay, less so Jessica...) so this is just as much as their fight as it is for Matt and the few good cops (Brett Mahoney, included please!).
That works for me. This is definitely more of a Defenders-style fight than a Young Avengers one. I don't need Kate, Kamala, etc. in this fight. Obviously, I would love for Spider-Man to join the fight but I'm okay with him not being involved (and not just for rights issues).
I agree the violence level was a bit extreme but for the most part I didn't mind except some of the worst stuff with Muse...and Fisk squashing the police commissioner's head like a watermelon. I had to look away from that moment because it was definitely unnecessarily graphic and I agree less is more in a scene like that.
In regards to the graphic violence, I think it hits harder in the final ep because there simply hasn't been all that much this season. The season 1 finale brought it back to Netflix DD levels. I just completed a rewatch of season 2 last night and I had completely forgotten just how insanely violent the first two seasons were.
Things I personally think season 2 needs:
1) A return to Matt's faith. They didn't completely abandon it for Born Again, it cropped up in dialigue. But some of the strongest material in the Netflix run was Matt's views on God vs his mission.
Ideally, this would see the return of Sister Maggie, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
2) Luke Cage and/or Jessica Jones. These two make the most sense from the Defenders crew. I think Jessica feels more organic, because she and Matt spent the most time together, but I would also love to see some hint of where Luke got to after his series.
3) Karen vs Buck Cashman. This is a tradition, might as well lean in. She killed Wesley, Dex nearly killed her. How will she fare against the new right hand?
4) More BB Urich, and with an actual plot for her this time. She absolutely must meet Karen, no question.
1) A return to Matt's faith. They didn't completely abandon it for Born Again, it cropped up in dialigue. But some of the strongest material in the Netflix run was Matt's views on God vs his mission.
Ideally, this would see the return of Sister Maggie, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
2) Luke Cage and/or Jessica Jones. These two make the most sense from the Defenders crew. I think Jessica feels more organic, because she and Matt spent the most time together, but I would also love to see some hint of where Luke got to after his series.
3) Karen vs Buck Cashman. This is a tradition, might as well lean in. She killed Wesley, Dex nearly killed her. How will she fare against the new right hand?
4) More BB Urich, and with an actual plot for her this time. She absolutely must meet Karen, no question.
I agree, for me the show is just ok without Foggy, his character was so good!
But if Dex can survive a beating last season and being kicked of the roof this season, Foggy could be alive right? How I wish it could be
Wow. I don't have adequate words for that finale. Everyone was pitch perfect. It was so good seeing Karen again!
I wonder if Sheila will have problems living with herself after what happened to Gallo? She looked a bit queasy at the end.
I loved the post-credit scene. As my hubby said, with Frank it's like Rorshach: he's not in there with you, you're in there with HIM!
I wonder if Sheila will have problems living with herself after what happened to Gallo? She looked a bit queasy at the end.
I loved the post-credit scene. As my hubby said, with Frank it's like Rorshach: he's not in there with you, you're in there with HIM!
To be fair plenty of real world politicians have dealt with the criminal underworld, extorted people, and had undue influence over law enforcement.
Fisk, to me, is played as almost an anti-villain (defo not the right term but until someone tells me the right one I'm using it). He is clearly not a "good" person but he is a very principled person with a strict morale code and I think he genuinely does believe what he is doing is for the ultimate benefit of the city as a whole even if he has to use unsavoury methods.
You can almost see at times that he is conflicted by the choices he feels he has to make - and has taken on the "martyr complex" whereby he doesn't believe anyone else will do or can do what is necessary to achieve these righteous goals and so takes it upon himself to do what others can't.
He is a really good foil for Matt Murdock - both charming in their own way, both with a strong sense of right and wrong, both trying to make the city a better place, and both with a very deep and dark side to them only Murdock's choices are presented as being "more right" than Fisk's (and mostly are) but this version of Matt is no saint.
Damn, that was one hell of a finale.
I was a little shocked at how gory it was, I think this must the most graphic Marvel Studios production so far. I have to wonder if a person could actually do what Fisk did to the police commissioner. I know Fisk is a big guy, but that still seemed a bit over the top.
Seeing what it took for Vanessa to get Bullseye to leave the hospital to kill Foggy for her, definitely made this with him a big more complicated. It will be interesting to see what they do with him next season.
It was great to see Karen again, I knew once they revealed that someone talked Frank into helping Matt, it was her. She's the only person who he would actually do that for.
While I wasn't a huge fan of how graphic it was, the action with Frank and Matt was fantastic.
I just hope next season we get at least some acknowledgement that there are other heroes/vigalantes in New York besides Matt and Frank, and get at least references to what they're up to. There aren't quite as many heroes based in New York in the MCU as there are in the comics, but there's still quite a few of them, and it's hard to believe none of them would get involved in this. They made more of a point of acknowledging the wider MCU this season, so I'd hate to see the show suddenly start pretending that Matt Frank, and maybe Swordsman are suddenly the only heroes in the world. Hell, even heroes who aren't based out of NYC itself might even want to get involved in something of this scale.
I was a little shocked at how gory it was, I think this must the most graphic Marvel Studios production so far. I have to wonder if a person could actually do what Fisk did to the police commissioner. I know Fisk is a big guy, but that still seemed a bit over the top.
Seeing what it took for Vanessa to get Bullseye to leave the hospital to kill Foggy for her, definitely made this with him a big more complicated. It will be interesting to see what they do with him next season.
It was great to see Karen again, I knew once they revealed that someone talked Frank into helping Matt, it was her. She's the only person who he would actually do that for.
While I wasn't a huge fan of how graphic it was, the action with Frank and Matt was fantastic.
I just hope next season we get at least some acknowledgement that there are other heroes/vigalantes in New York besides Matt and Frank, and get at least references to what they're up to. There aren't quite as many heroes based in New York in the MCU as there are in the comics, but there's still quite a few of them, and it's hard to believe none of them would get involved in this. They made more of a point of acknowledging the wider MCU this season, so I'd hate to see the show suddenly start pretending that Matt Frank, and maybe Swordsman are suddenly the only heroes in the world. Hell, even heroes who aren't based out of NYC itself might even want to get involved in something of this scale.
