Spoilers Daredevil: Born Again discussion thread

[FPAlpha]

To be fair plenty of real world politicians have dealt with the criminal underworld, extorted people, and had undue influence over law enforcement.

Fisk, to me, is played as almost an anti-villain (defo not the right term but until someone tells me the right one I'm using it). He is clearly not a "good" person but he is a very principled person with a strict morale code and I think he genuinely does believe what he is doing is for the ultimate benefit of the city as a whole even if he has to use unsavoury methods.

You can almost see at times that he is conflicted by the choices he feels he has to make - and has taken on the "martyr complex" whereby he doesn't believe anyone else will do or can do what is necessary to achieve these righteous goals and so takes it upon himself to do what others can't.

He is a really good foil for Matt Murdock - both charming in their own way, both with a strong sense of right and wrong, both trying to make the city a better place, and both with a very deep and dark side to them only Murdock's choices are presented as being "more right" than Fisk's (and mostly are) but this version of Matt is no saint.

I'm sorry, have we seen the same show, especially after the finale?

I have to disagree hard on your take. Fisk is a villain, plain and simple. Villains can be principled too in their own way but this doesn't mean that standing by your word or making a fair deal for both sides means anything if it's illegal.

I mean the parallels to Trump are not very subtle - a criminal enters politics and despite the odds wins only to continue using his criminal methods but on a larger scale now.

 

[Weyoun 251]

I'm sorry, have we seen the same show, especially after the finale?

I have to disagree hard on your take. Fisk is a villain, plain and simple. Villains can be principled too in their own way but this doesn't mean that standing by your word or making a fair deal for both sides means anything if it's illegal.

I mean the parallels to Trump are not very subtle - a criminal enters politics and despite the odds wins only to continue using his criminal methods but on a larger scale now.

Maybe I'm being influenced too by his portrayal in the Netflix Daredevil - just feel like with being shown the trauma he suffered growing up and things like not revealing Matt's identity to the public shows that he does have lines he won't cross.

His methods are vile/brutal - as we saw especially in that last episode - but his capacity to genuinely love and care for people is also important to keep in mind.

Palpatine follows the same arc - no one is going to pretend he is a good person or anything but I think in his own twisted way he believed it was for the greater good, even though we as the audience obviously don't see it that way

Best explanation of what I mean is this - https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenEvilHasStandards

 

[FPAlpha]

I just hope next season we get at least some acknowledgement that there are other heroes/vigalantes in New York besides Matt and Frank, and get at least references to what they're up to. There aren't quite as many heroes based in New York in the MCU as there are in the comics, but there's still quite a few of them, and it's hard to believe none of them would get involved in this. They made more of a point of acknowledging the wider MCU this season, so I'd hate to see the show suddenly start pretending that Matt Frank, and maybe Swordsman are suddenly the only heroes in the world. Hell, even heroes who aren't based out of NYC itself might even want to get involved in something of this scale.

It's strange how sometimes huge events in one show barely make an impact anywhere. A complete blackout in NYC for an entire night and well into the day would make worldwide news and have far reaching conequences around the world but i will bet you that next season it won't be mentioned anymore and no effect will be shown.

One just has to get used to this in entertainment, reality can be often either far more complicated or just too boring.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

It's strange how sometimes huge events in one show barely make an impact anywhere. A complete blackout in NYC for an entire night and well into the day would make worldwide news and have far reaching conequences around the world but i will bet you that next season it won't be mentioned anymore and no effect will be shown.

One just has to get used to this in entertainment, reality can be often either far more complicated or just too boring.

Not to mention the mayor declaring martial law for a city like New York. That would dominate headlines worldwide for at least a weekend. Fisk might even get a call from Harrison Ford (depending on when this takes place)

 

[FPAlpha]

Maybe I'm being influenced too by his portrayal in the Netflix Daredevil - just feel like with being shown the trauma he suffered growing up and things like not revealing Matt's identity to the public shows that he does have lines he won't cross.

His methods are vile/brutal - as we saw especially in that last episode - but his capacity to genuinely love and care for people is also important to keep in mind.

Palpatine follows the same arc - no one is going to pretend he is a good person or anything but I think in his own twisted way he believed it was for the greater good, even though we as the audience obviously don't see it that way

Best explanation of what I mean is this - https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenEvilHasStandards

I'm not arguing that evil people can't have their own internal logic, principles and laws they dilligently follow. It doesn't make them good people though.

The fact that he didn't reveal Matt's identity is due to Matt finding his one weak spot - Vanessa. He had beaten Fisk and threatened to expose Vanessa's murder involvement ensuring she would end up in prison, something Fisk dreaded and would not allow to happen. So it's not out of some respect for his enemy, Matt simply assured mutual destruction should Fisk ever expose him or harm Karen or Foggy.

Psychopaths do have the capacity for emotions, love being amongst them but they're still psychopaths.

 

[Weyoun 251]

I'm not arguing that evil people can't have their own internal logic, principles and laws they dilligently follow. It doesn't make them good people though.

The fact that he didn't reveal Matt's identity is due to Matt finding his one weak spot - Vanessa. He had beaten Fisk and threatened to expose Vanessa's murder involvement ensuring she would end up in prison, something Fisk dreaded and would not allow to happen. So it's not out of some respect for his enemy, Matt simply assured mutual destruction should Fisk ever expose him or harm Karen or Foggy.

Psychopaths do have the capacity for emotions, love being amongst them but they're still psychopaths.

I think we are closer to the same page than it seems - because I agree with every word you say.

He is in the same class as Ra's al-ghul in Batman Begins - the internal logic of the character says that they are making the world a better place even though the methods are abhorrent

Didn't mean that we should like him, just that if we put ourselves in their shoes we can see how their twisted logic got from A to B to C as opposed to someone like Angelus who simply does things for the sheer enjoyment of causing pain.

Going with the Buffy analogy - Fisk is similar to The Master in that he is (sort of) lawful evil as opposed to Angelus' Chaotic Evil

 

[Turtletrekker]

I recall the Marvel / DC comic crossover between World War II era Batman and Captain America. The villains, of course, were the Joker and the Red Skull. When The Joker discovered that the Red Skull's Nazi schtick wasn't a stick at all but actually real, he responded by saying, "I may be a criminal lunatic, but I'm an American criminal lunatic!"

 

[Weyoun 251]

I recall the Marvel / DC comic crossover between World War II era Batman and Captain America. The villains, of course, were the Joker and the Red Skull. When The Joker discovered that the Red Skull's Nazi schtick wasn't a stick at all but actually real, he responded by saying, "I may be a criminal lunatic, but I'm an American criminal lunatic!"

If I'm right that is the headline example used on TV Tropes for "Even Evil has standards"

 

[Turtletrekker]

I can see the other Defenders characters involving themselves next season, but it occurs to me that Kate Bishop may have a dog in this fight as well what with Jack's disappearance.

 

[JD]

It's strange how sometimes huge events in one show barely make an impact anywhere. A complete blackout in NYC for an entire night and well into the day would make worldwide news and have far reaching conequences around the world but i will bet you that next season it won't be mentioned anymore and no effect will be shown.

One just has to get used to this in entertainment, reality can be often either far more complicated or just too boring.

Yeah, and I know this is a problem with a lot of shared universe media, but at least the comics are better about bringing in multiple heroes or giving an excuse for why no one else is involved in a big event like this.
When they did a similar storyline in the comics, with Fisk being elected Mayor of New York and outlawing super heroes, it ended in a big crossover event with pretty much all of their major heroes.

 

[FPAlpha]

Yeah, and I know this is a problem with a lot of shared universe media, but at least the comics are better about bringing in multiple heroes or giving an excuse for why no one else is involved in a big event like this.
When they did a similar storyline in the comics, with Fisk being elected Mayor of New York and outlawing super heroes, it ended in a big crossover event with pretty much all of their major heroes.

Well, obviously the comics have it far easier. They just have to write and draw the heroes since they own them, real life is money and schedule problems that prohibit comic level easy events or mass gatherings for every storyline.

I hope that the next season will see some named heroes support Matt, Frank and Karen. Maybe they'll introduce some new street level heroes if they decide not to use Netflix' Defenders ( or run into the money/schedule problem), after all Marvel used to love to use the movies and shows to introduce new characters all the time.

 

[eschaton]

While I argued that Kingpin didn't seem to be the villain of the season up until the penultimate episode, the finale obviously walks all over this hypothesis. Indeed, the whole season in retrospect could be seen as an "origin story" of sorts for his latest villain incarnation. I was simply wrong here, it seems, though given the whole two sets of showrunners thing, the initial arc for Kingpin may have been a bit muddled.

Regardless, the number one thing that shocked me regarding the finale is how shockingly political and timely it is. Obviously, they intended Kingpin to be something of a Trump analogue from the getgo, but they had no way of knowing at the time it was filmed what the beginning of his second term would look like. So the season finale doing something of an Andor speedrun - focusing in totality on fascism, and how people either accommodate themselves to it or choose to fight against it - it was simply not what I expected. Particularly because the earlier forays of the MCU into politics have been warmed-over centrist pablum intended to offend as few people as possible.

 

[Tuskin38]

Indeed, the whole season in retrospect could be seen as an "origin story" of sorts for his latest villain incarnation.

Well, it is right in the name of the series.
It also applies to Matt.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Things I personally think season 2 needs:

1) A return to Matt's faith. They didn't completely abandon it for Born Again, it cropped up in dialigue. But some of the strongest material in the Netflix run was Matt's views on God vs his mission.

Ideally, this would see the return of Sister Maggie, but I'm not getting my hopes up.

2) Luke Cage and/or Jessica Jones. These two make the most sense from the Defenders crew. I think Jessica feels more organic, because she and Matt spent the most time together, but I would also love to see some hint of where Luke got to after his series.

3) Karen vs Buck Cashman. This is a tradition, might as well lean in. She killed Wesley, Dex nearly killed her. How will she fare against the new right hand?

4) More BB Urich, and with an actual plot for her this time. She absolutely must meet Karen, no question.

I agree with all of this but especially more inclusion of Matt's faith within his thought process. Father Lantom is gone but, as you said, Sister Maggie can fulfill the role and in a different way. I agree it's a long shot, but I can only hope....and pray.

I also agree that we need a lot more of BB Urich. I loved her interviews on the street interludes but she definitely needs to be more directly involved with the plot. We got a hint of that in the penultimate episode as she revealed to the police commissioner that she's using Daniel Blake to get closer to Fisk in order to find proof about her uncle's murder. I need much more of that next season. And yes, she needs to meet Karen.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I haven't had the chance to read the whole interview yet, but as part of a five-director roundtable interview with the Hollywood Reporter, Aaron Moorhead commented on Foggy's death:

There’s a fan theory involving the 468 address adjacent to the Nelson, Murdock and Page law office. That number corresponds with a comic in which Foggy fakes his death. Is there any there, there? ​

​

MOORHEAD I’ve heard this theory, you eagle-eyed geniuses. I would love to tell you, however, Marvel will snipe me if I say anything else. But what is really nice about Daredevil being a street-level superhero is that, generally, the supernatural doesn’t really interact with this universe as much, even though it is within the MCU. So that often gives much stronger consequences where punches hurt more and blood means more and getting hurt means more and dying very often does mean that you’re actually dead. But that’s all I can say.​

 

[USS Firefly]

Unless you are Dex, then you can break your back and be thrown off a high building and just walk away

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Or unless you are Nobu or Elektra, then you can actually be brought back from the dead.

 

[Tuskin38]

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