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Spoilers Daredevil: Born Again discussion thread

So... 3 months of taekwondo as a kid is enough to keep one of the MCU's best martial artists at bay? I love a good fight as much as anyone, but guys like Bullseye should be on par with Daredevil, not some art school reject.
Yeah, 3 months made me go "huh?" too especially when he said he was able to kill his taekwondo master after that much time. Does the character in the comics have some kind of super eidetic memory? Again, it makes me feel there's more going on here than we know.
 
Vincent D'Onofrio being very diplomatic about the original take on Born Again.

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And his thoughts on Wilson Fisk's ambitions.

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I wonder if we'll ever learn more details about the original take for the first season beyond that it was more of a court-oriented drama.
 
Apparently there are rights issues to using the Kingpin character that seemingly prevents him from being in a movie.

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I think the rule is, if Kingpin even looks sideways at a Spider-Man film he become the property of Sony, ;)
 
We might, Sony can use him in movies so they and Disney just need to play nice and put him in Spiderman.
Money talks. They just need to work something out (either monetarily or through some other exchange). That being said, it may be a moot point if the rumors are true and the BND film is cosmic level instead of street level. That would likely preclude the use of Fisk.
 
Yeah, 3 months made me go "huh?" too especially when he said he was able to kill his taekwondo master after that much time. Does the character in the comics have some kind of super eidetic memory? Again, it makes me feel there's more going on here than we know.
I didn't take that as he learned Taekwondo for 3 months, but that he learned Taekwondo as a child, became good enough to be in competitions and likely be thought of highly and then his parents at the age of 16 hired this specialist who then taught him for 3 months before Bastian killed him.

He didn't say when he started learning it, but the way he talked about how his parents forced him and wouldn't let him quit. That would seem like something he was forced to do for much longer than a 3 month period.

I didn't really care much for the whole Muse thing or see him as a worthwhile opponent though... the only thing about the episode I actually liked was Fisk's speech ranting about Daredevil and his 'illegal vigilante tactics' and not using 'due process' while talking about how he took down his CRIMINAL ENTERPRISE.

Those poor 'blue collar millionaires' and port workers who lost their jobs/money lol
 
"You just gonna stand out there like a hobo, Matt, or you gonna come in? Have a drink."

What a masterstroke of couples. The powerful dynamics between Matt & Heather and Wilson & Vanessa, as well as the different pairings among them, was the bedrock of this episode and I could not be happier with how everything played out. While I wish the episode had dug a little deeper into Heather's understandable stance about masks and vigilantes as a whole, I loved seeing the strife it created between her and Matt and I hope the season finale and the second season continue to explore that relationship between them. Likewise, I loved how the truth finally came out that it was Vanessa who ordered Foggy's death (major kudos to Xerxes for figuring that out early on!), revealed on the dance floor, during Wilson's moment of vainglory as he continued to coalesce his power to a new level. The whole dancing sequence between the four of them was a tour de force.

I was also especially pleased how the episode opened with a moment of predictability and ended with a moment of shock.

The moment I saw the look on Vanessa's face as framed by Adam's cage, I knew she would sooner shoot him than release him. The only person who should be shocked by that revelation has to be Adam alone. A deeply satisfying conclusion to that particular thread, although I also can't help but wonder if Vanessa now resents Wilson for forcing her hand in that moment. He had to keep his promise to her, but at the same time, he knew she would never allow Adam to go free at this point, risking exposure for both of them, regardless of Adam's pleas of promised disappearance. Between this potential sense of resentment and Wilson's own inevitable sense of resentment upon learning Vanessa's decision to order Foggy's death behind his back, I cannot wait to see how the reopened rift will explode between them.

I love how that scene was bookended with Matt's seemingly spontaneous decision to leap in front of Bullseye's bullet intended for Wilson. The whole time while Bullseye lurked in the shadows, I kept wondering who would be his intended target to the point that I simply did not see Matt's sacrifice coming and it immediately left me reeling. I cannot imagine what Foggy and Karen would think about Matt's decision to do something so...radical. Hopefully we won't have to wait long to find out about the latter.

Tucked away nicely within this powerhouse of an episode was the revelation that I hoped for since the moment the show announced her character: BB Urich is indeed slowly working her way inside the Fisk administration, via the newly promoted deputy mayor of communications Daniel Blake (*shudder*), in order to expose him for the murder of her beloved uncle. As much as I still hate the early disposal of Ben Urich in the first season (the singular flaw of an otherwise perfect season), I love that his legacy lives on through his niece and I cannot wait to see how BB continues her work as a journalist.
 
Oh dear. Well, that was a thing. I think this was probably the best episode of the run so far, but where the hell do you go next week after that?!

Let's start small. Wilson Bethel is a delight as Bullseye. He makes the most of very little screen time.

The Fisk marital drama appears to be resolved here. He shows Vanessa he's both still the Kingpin at heart, and that he's kept his promise. Watching Wilson essentially beg Vanessa to kill Adam because he can't stand what Adam represents, but Vanessa has forbidden the man's murder, was painful. Unsurprisingly, she puts Adam out of his misery. This is such a twisted, yet genuine couple.

I'm less invested in Matt and Heather. Their scenes were excellent, but they are so clearly not on the same page where some pretty key points are concerned that it's hard for me to really buy in to their relationship. Still, this was the best use of the Heather character thus far, in terms of her time with Matt rather than the Fisks.

Between this potential sense of resentment and Wilson's own inevitable sense of resentment upon learning Vanessa's decision to order Foggy's death behind his back, I cannot wait to see how the reopened rift will explode between them.
As clearly documented in my earlier posts on this subject, the fallout between the Fisks over this reveal was something I thought would divide them. I no longer do. There may very well be chickens still coming home to roost on that front next week, but...

"If I cannot be with you, I cannot be." Says Wilson. Right before Matt has a reason to go HARD at Vanessa.

No, the Foggy reveal isn't going to divide the Fisks. It's going to sharpen Wilson's resolve. Daredevil is now a massive threat to his wife. Matt may have just taken a bullet for him, very publicly. But Wilson Fisk is going to absolutely DESTROY Matt Murdock. And that leaves just one card left to be played.

As my post began, oh dear. Matt's secret ID? Not going to be secret for much longer, I fear.
 
Oh, and I forgot! Our moral quandary of the week:

Did Matt deliberately help Bullseye escape from prison? Or did losing his temper just lead to an unfortunate turn of events? Because Dex offered Matt the person who ordered Foggy's murder if only he was on the outside. And then Matt bashed his face into the table and knocked out one of Dex's teeth, which conveniently enabled the escape.

Is that why Matt took the bullet for Wilson? Because he felt guilty for freeing Dex from jail? Or is Matt just meeting Dex's description of a good man? Defending his worst enemy.
 
As clearly documented in my earlier posts on this subject, the fallout between the Fisks over this reveal was something I thought would divide them. I no longer do. There may very well be chickens still coming home to roost on that front next week, but...

"If I cannot be with you, I cannot be." Says Wilson. Right before Matt has a reason to go HARD at Vanessa.

No, the Foggy reveal isn't going to divide the Fisks. It's going to sharpen Wilson's resolve. Daredevil is now a massive threat to his wife. Matt may have just taken a bullet for him, very publicly. But Wilson Fisk is going to absolutely DESTROY Matt Murdock. And that leaves just one card left to be played.

As my post began, oh dear. Matt's secret ID? Not going to be secret for much longer, I fear.
Hmmm...I'll have to chew on that for awhile. Although I think it could go either way, I suspect that you're probably right. But I still can't help but wonder how Wilson specifically feels about Vanessa go after Foggy behind his back when he made his promise to Matt about not doing so...for her own sake.

...unless, Wilson sees her action as a loop hole...just like he forced Vanessa's hand to kill Adam as a loop hole.

Shit. I think I just talked myself into agreeing with you.

Oh, and I forgot! Our moral quandary of the week:

Did Matt deliberately help Bullseye escape from prison? Or did losing his temper just lead to an unfortunate turn of events? Because Dex offered Matt the person who ordered Foggy's murder if only he was on the outside. And then Matt bashed his face into the table and knocked out one of Dex's teeth, which conveniently enabled the escape.

Is that why Matt took the bullet for Wilson? Because he felt guilty for freeing Dex from jail? Or is Matt just meeting Dex's description of a good man? Defending his worst enemy.
I had the same thoughts banging around the back of my head. Perhaps not as far as Matt feeling guilty for causing Dex's escape and that's why he took the bullet, but I definitely wondered if he deliberately allowed Dex to escape by slamming Dex's head against the table.
 
I considered the possibililty that Matt deliberately allowed Bullseye to escape, but rejected it. He had to know that Bullseye would end up killing multiple people to make that escape.
I'm of the same opinion. But I have mad love for the writers and performers for leaving the ambiguity in there.

Plus, you just know Matt's Catholic guilt is going to have him thinking that same thought himself at some point.
 
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