"Cause and Effect" -- an interesting point

[martok2112]

I apologize if this has been discussed before, but I did not see a similar thread....

In the episode "Cause and Effect" where the Enterprise is caught in a temporal causality loop, culminating each time in the destruction of the Enterprise, there is something that has me wondering about starship operations.

Riker's suggestion is to open the main shuttlebay to space, decompressing it, venting the internal air pressure of that section so it would move the Enterprise out of the way, since helm controls were non-responsive.

Now, that is a pretty risky order to give, considering that:

A. -- there may have been personnel in the bay at the time.
B. -- there was no "evacuate main hangar bay" order given.

Now, the time of the occurrence, it's possible that the main hangar may have been unoccupied. Most of the Alpha shift crew were up quite a bit earlier than usual. It is possible that during the third watch (Gamma shift) there is no one in the hangar, since shuttle ops would be rare at that time.

But if anyone was present... well.... they're space fodder.

I know, I know.... needs of the many.... but still...

So... was it a condition that was neatly woven into the plot, to minimize, avoid casualties (since ultimately, Riker's gambit paid off)? Or was it an oversight of considering that personnel might actually have been present in the main hangar when Riker gave the order?

Thoughts?

 

[shivkala]

If I remember, opening the shuttlebay doors was a slow process and involved an alarm of some kind going off.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=701rpkCbDuA[/yt]

My guess is the procedure would be for the door to start opening, the alarm noise to sound, and possibly an "evacuate the area" cue to be given before the forcefield was dropped to vent the air. It may even be an automatic thing, since, with the forcefield holding the atmosphere in place, it would be an out of the ordinary thing for it to be dropped.

 

[at Quark's]

If I remember, opening the shuttlebay doors was a slow process and involved an alarm of some kind going off.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=701rpkCbDuA[/yt]

My guess is the procedure would be for the door to start opening, the alarm noise to sound, and possibly an "evacuate the area" cue to be given before the forcefield was dropped to vent the air. It may even be an automatic thing, since, with the forcefield holding the atmosphere in place, it would be an out of the ordinary thing for it to be dropped.

Such safegueards would be reasonable in themselves. However, the way it is shown in the episode, it doesn't exactly seem like they have a lot of time to implement the idea (otherwise the tractor beam probably just would have worked fine, too), so I would be guessing that even if they were in place as an operating standard, they would have been overridden during this emergency.

 

[Amaraen]

I think that since the shuttle bay is not used every day, it would not be regularly staffed. They probably have scheduled shuttle use, and then someone will go there, or for maintenance duties, etc.

 

[hux]

The amount of movement such an action would give you is negligible anyway. Riker might as well have suggested getting out and giving the Enterprise a push.

But assuming it could work and there were crew in the cargo bay then I would suggest that you beam them back on board as quickly as possible or you simply have to accept their deaths in the line of duty.

 

[martok2112]

I think that since the shuttle bay is not used every day, it would not be regularly staffed. They probably have scheduled shuttle use, and then someone will go there, or for maintenance duties, etc.

Aye, that was also where I made my consideration that perhaps the shuttle bay is pretty much unoccupied during Gamma shift (third shift)... and it did seem that the Alpha shift was up pretty early before going to the bridge... so Gamma shift may not have offically ended just yet.

A fortunate happenstance for the main shuttle bay crew...since likely no one would be in there until time to "open for business". It would seem that the incident occurred just a few minutes before any shuttle bay personnel entered. (And when they did, they'd be thinking "What the *%)# just happened in here?! Why are all the cargo boxes either missing or lying elsewhere from where we'd put them?!"

The amount of movement such an action would give you is negligible anyway. Riker might as well have suggested getting out and giving the Enterprise a push.

An interesting point too.

Alas, it all falls on my "Rules of Storytelling" ...

Logic and physics go out the window for the needs of dramatic storytelling.

Still makes for cool discussion though.

 

[Amaraen]

Well considering that there is no resistance in space, they would only need a quick burst. They only really needed to move a few dozen meters to avoid a direct collision.

 

[Tracy Trek]

The amount of movement such an action would give you is negligible anyway. Riker might as well have suggested getting out and giving the Enterprise a push.

But assuming it could work and there were crew in the cargo bay then I would suggest that you beam them back on board as quickly as possible or you simply have to accept their deaths in the line of duty.

Would they not die instantly? But perhaps not so badly damaged that 24th century medicine couldn't revive them.

 

[Timo]

Well considering that there is no resistance in space, they would only need a quick burst. They only really needed to move a few dozen meters to avoid a direct collision.

...But if they just vented the air from that facility, they would barely move a few centimeters in the time allotted.

Then again, the push of air would be so gentle that it's unlikely anybody would actually be blown out, either. The air would just rush out around them, and only somebody unfortunate enough to lose his balance near the outer doors might get kicked out beyond the grip of the ship's artificial gravity.

But Data could use that gravity, turned ninety degrees and revved up by a few thousand percent, to kick the air out with enough force to actually do what it was claimed to do in the episode...

Would they not die instantly?

From what? Their lungs might not take to the sudden pressure differential kindly - but most of them would probably scream, removing that differential and protecting the lungs. Beyond that, it would be just a matter of frostbite, slow asphyxia and a whole-body owie, plus popped eyedrums and slight damage to the eyes.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Squiggy]

It wouldn't even be frostbyte. The body doesn't loose heat quickly in a vacuum.

You could survive for a bit outside. You wouldn't want to, but you can do it.

 

[at Quark's]

Well considering that there is no resistance in space, they would only need a quick burst. They only really needed to move a few dozen meters to avoid a direct collision.

...But if they just vented the air from that facility, they would barely move a few centimeters in the time allotted.

Then again, the push of air would be so gentle that it's unlikely anybody would actually be blown out, either. The air would just rush out around them, and only somebody unfortunate enough to lose his balance near the outer doors might get kicked out beyond the grip of the ship's artificial gravity.

But Data could use that gravity, turned ninety degrees and revved up by a few thousand percent, to kick the air out with enough force to actually do what it was claimed to do in the episode...

Would they not die instantly?

From what? Their lungs might not take to the sudden pressure differential kindly - but most of them would probably scream, removing that differential and protecting the lungs. Beyond that, it would be just a matter of frostbite, slow asphyxia and a whole-body owie, plus popped eyedrums and slight damage to the eyes.

Timo Saloniemi

Several sources agree with you that there needn't be any immediate severe damage to the body, not if the exposure wouldn't last for more than a few seconds. Would make for an interesting follow-up scene though. A few irked crewman telling Riker that they didn't appreciate being popped out in vacuum without any warning, however briefly, and Riker replying that's just all part of a day's work at the great ship Enterprise and that they should perhaps look for another assignment if they can't take the pressure (or in this case, lack thereof)...

 

[Tracy Trek]

It wouldn't even be frostbyte. The body doesn't loose heat quickly in a vacuum.

You could survive for a bit outside. You wouldn't want to, but you can do it.

Ok, my mistake, I didn't know. I guess I was getting my opinion from what happened to Tim Robbin's character in "Mission to Mars". By that I mean he died instantly.

Edited to add: Now that I think about it, wasn't there an episode (Disaster?) from Next Gen. where Geordi and Beverly had to decompress a cargo or shuttle bay to put out a fire. They had to hang on to something to keep from getting blown out into space.

 

[Amaraen]

Yes, that was in Disaster. The main shuttlebay is even much larger, if they opened the door and decompress it then it should provide quite a bit of force to push them.

 

[T'Girl]

The amount of movement such an action would give you is negligible anyway.

In Booby Trap, the Enterprise was maneuvered using just two thrusters, opening the shuttle bay door would initially generate about six thousand tonnes of force.

Part of the impulse drive includes "space-time driver coils" that reduces the Enterprise's mass, while the impulse engine were not producing thrust, if the driver coils themselves were still in operation, this would enable the thrust from the shuttle bay's open door to move the Enterprise.

Easy.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Simplest answer is that alert conditions include nobody milling around in the bay...whatever staff the bay has are all secure.

 

[Avro Arrow]

We saw the bay open, and no one came flying out. So either Data knew no one was in the bay, or he did something to protect them.

IIRC, he did a fair bit of tapping on his console, so he could have:
- run a quick scan to verify the bay was empty
- initiated a site-to-site transport to clear all lifeforms out of the bay
- cranked up the AG to keep everyone rooted in place
... you get the idea.

In the shot of the bay opening, there were a couple shuttles parked right near the door. Should the force of the air escaping have caused them to move, or would they be heavy enough to stay stationary? (Although I guess if they were going to move, they could have moved before the door had opened enough for them to become visible?)

 

[Timo]

Yes, that was in Disaster. The main shuttlebay is even much larger, if they opened the door and decompress it then it should provide quite a bit of force to push them.

Intuitively, it would seem that "Disaster" got it dead wrong, too. Had LaForge and Crusher simply stood next to (or close to) a wall, there would not have been enough air between them and the wall to push them towards the space door, and air doesn't exert any real "pull".

How often has wind blown you off your feet anyway?

In Booby Trap, the Enterprise was maneuvered using just two thrusters

...Each of which could have been immensely powerful. We know little about "thrusters", but we do know the physics of opening one side of a box of known dimensions full of breathable air to empty space.

if the driver coils themselves were still in operation

That is the question, really. What was working? Engines were out, but tractor beam was in use; shields didn't work, but shuttlebay doors could be operated. Gravity still worked fine...

Data might have done a lot of neat tricks with 24th century supertech to create the effect we saw. And for a rare once, he didn't stop to discuss the details, which basically was the whole point of the story.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Triskelion]

Aaaah....screw 'em.

 

[T'Girl]

In the shot of the bay opening, there were a couple shuttles parked right near the door. Should the force of the air escaping have caused them to move, or would they be heavy enough to stay stationary?

Given how common it is for the ship to unexpectantly get slammed in someway, likely the shuttles are "tied down" in some fashion.

 

[Search4]

More importantly - why was the starboard nacelle hit, and the port nacelle be the one that exploded?