Another comic question Adamantium v. Vibranium

[darkwing_duck1]

Okay, that's pretty ambiguous on whether adamantium contains vibranium or not. At least its predecessor in Cap's shield did.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from. My read is that Cap's shield is a vibranium(w)/conventional steel alloy. it may be near as tough as true admantium, but it's different and contains no admantium in the mix.

No, no, adamantium is the mix. It says it right there in the first sentence of the passage you quoted: "Adamantium is a virtually indestructible steel alloy." Cap's shield is a similar steel alloy containing vibranium. The inventor of Cap's shield tried to recreate that alloy but failed, and ended up creating true adamantium instead. It doesn't make sense to talk about adamantium as an ingredient in an alloy; that's like listing "cake" as an ingredient in a cake recipe.

This is the exact quote:

Through a metallurgic accident, MacLain created the indestructibleVibranium-steel compound that was used to create the shield used by the super-soldier Captain America.

MacLain spent decades attempting to duplicate the process, and although unsuccessful, he instead created True Adamantium in the 1960s.

Nothing said about adamantium being in that mix. Adamantium didn't even EXIST until the 60s.

 

[Trekker4747]

You're not getting it.

Vibranium is an "element" (for want of a better term.)

For our purposes we'll call it "iron."

Scientist wanted to duplicate vibaranium (an alien "element") by making a artificial version of it. He ended up with adamantium. An alloy. A combination of vibranium and other elements like iron.

Vibranium is to iron what Adamantium is to steel.

(Steel being an iron and carbon alloy.)

As Christopher said saying Adamantium "contains adamantium" is senseless. It's like saying a cake recipe "contains cake."

 

[darkwing_duck1]

You're not getting it.

Vibranium is an "element" (for want of a better term.)

For our purposes we'll call it "iron."

Scientist wanted to duplicate vibaranium (an alien "element") by making a artificial version of it. He ended up with adamantium. An alloy. A combination of vibranium and other elements like iron.

Vibranium is to iron what Adamantium is to steel.

(Steel being an iron and carbon alloy.)

As Christopher said saying Adamantium "contains adamantium" is senseless. It's like saying a cake recipe "contains cake."

I know that. Christopher is saying that Cap's shield contains adamantium, which is incorrect. Cap's shield is a vibranium/(conventional)steel alloy. There is NO adamantium in Cap's shield.

It was during the attempt to DUPLICATE the vib/steel alloy that adamantium was discovered in the 60s.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

So does his shield now contain "American steel" as an element?

BTW, it says that's a Marvel *wiki* so I don't know how valid the authority of those pages are.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

So does his shield now contain "American steel" as an element?

No, just plain old steel as part of the alloy.

Why is this so hard for people to get? THERE WAS NO ADAMANTIUM IN CAP'S SHEILD!

BTW, it says that's a Marvel *wiki* so I don't know how valid the authority of those pages are.

It's Marvel's OWN Wikki, maintained by Marvel.com, which makes it about as official a word as you're going to get.

 

[Checkmate]

You're not getting it. [...] Scientist wanted to duplicate vibaranium (an alien "element") by making a artificial version of it. He ended up with adamantium. An alloy. A combination of vibranium and other elements like iron.

No, adamantium doesn't have vibranium in it. In fact, the only metal we know for certain to be a part of its alloy is steel; the rest is a mystery.

The same scientist (MacLain) also developed the vibranium-steel alloy used to create Captain America's shield, but he was never able to duplicate it again. During his attempts to do so, he discovered the adamantium alloy. If adamantium was a vibranium-steel alloy, then it would be identical to Cap's shield.

On top of that, the only material that can damage adamantium is the extraordinarily rare Antarctic Vibranium; the stuff in Cap's shield won't do the trick.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

So does his shield now contain "American steel" as an element?

No, just plain old steel as part of the alloy.

Why is this so hard for people to get? THERE WAS NO ADAMANTIUM IN CAP'S SHEILD!

BTW, it says that's a Marvel *wiki* so I don't know how valid the authority of those pages are.

It's Marvel's OWN Wikki, maintained by Marvel.com, which makes it about as official a word as you're going to get.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Glossary:V

Well then *officially* the shield is made of vibranium, *adamantium* and *American steel*.



However, I would also note that:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Main_Page

In order to ensure that Marvel Universe is the best online resource for Marvel bios, we turned it over to the experts: you. That's right, ANY Marvel fan can contribute to Marvel.com's Marvel Universe

 

[darkwing_duck1]

So does his shield now contain "American steel" as an element?

No, just plain old steel as part of the alloy.

Why is this so hard for people to get? THERE WAS NO ADAMANTIUM IN CAP'S SHEILD!

BTW, it says that's a Marvel *wiki* so I don't know how valid the authority of those pages are.

It's Marvel's OWN Wikki, maintained by Marvel.com, which makes it about as official a word as you're going to get.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Glossary:V

Well then *officially* the shield is made of vibranium, *adamantium* and *American steel*.



However, I would also note that:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Main_Page

In order to ensure that Marvel Universe is the best online resource for Marvel bios, we turned it over to the experts: you. That's right, ANY Marvel fan can contribute to Marvel.com's Marvel Universe

So now we have a source/edit conflict. Anyone got any of the recent Marvel Encyclopeidas that might shed more light on this?

 

[Trekker4747]

The same scientist (MacLain) also developed the vibranium-steel alloy used to create Captain America's shield, but he was never able to duplicate it again. During his attempts to do so, he discovered the adamantium alloy. If adamantium was a vibranium-steel alloy, then it would be identical to Cap's shield.

:scratches head:

That doesn't make sense.

He's trying to duplicate the vibranium-steel alloy. Ok.

I'm going to duplicate a bread recipe (a "flour-water-egg alloy".)

I can't do that without using the materials in the original.

This scientist "discovered adamantium" in trying to make the vibranium-steel alloy. How did he do that without using vibranium?

That's like me making my bread without using one of the key components, like flour. Hey, guys! I made a cheese-water-egg alloy that's exactly like bread!

In checking it seems that you're right adamantium contains no vibranium but it doesn't make sense it could be "discovered" in trying to make alloy out of something that's not in the alloy you're making! AHHH!! I've gone crosseyed.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

What I've read is he discovered "True Adamantium" in Wakanda or whatever while searching for a duplicate of the unique shield alloy. Discovered in like natural stuff he found not stuff he created. The adamantium in Wolverine and others is created by a chemical process which results in adamantium which is not pure but can be molded to usable forms.

Whether that is complete bullshit or not I can't say, I don't have enough knowledge of the source material.

 

[Soar_Dude]

Here is what wikipedia entry says

The only known exceptions are adamantium itself and Captain America's shield, which is composed of a Vibranium-Iron alloy, the only substance in the Marvel Universe known to be even more durable than adamantium (adamantium was an attempt to artificially mimic the alloy in Captain America's shield). Wolverine's ability to slice completely through a substance depends upon both the amount of force he can exert and the thickness of the substance.

Soar Dude

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Ok, here's the wikki entry for Cap's shield. Before everyone starts yelling about "wikkis", it INCLUDES primary source notations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_America's_shield

The shield is created by a fictional American metallurgist named Dr. Myron MacLain, who had been commissioned by the US government to create an indestructible armor material to aid the war effort. MacLain experiments with vibranium, an alien metal found only in Wakanda that has unique vibration absorption properties.

During one of his experiments to fuse vibranium with an experimental iron alloy,[2] MacLain falls asleep and awakens to find the experiment a success. However, this is due to an unknown catalyst entering the process during his slumber, and he is unable to duplicate the result.

The vibranium-iron alloy mix is then poured into a mold for a tank's upper hatch to create the disc shape and painted to become Captain America's symbol.
Rogers' indestructible shield was long referred to, even in continuity, as being composed of an adamantium-vibranium alloy.

This contradicted earlier established continuity, as adamantium is only developed after Rogers is revived from suspended animation, during MacLain's later experiments to try and duplicate the material of the shield.

Adamantium makes its first appearance in Marvel Comics in Avengers Vol. 1 #66, July 1969.

The adamantium-vibranium error first appears in the Captain America entry in the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe (the composition of the shield is accurately described in the adamantium entry as "vibranium-iron") and was propagated in several subsequent stories by writers using the Handbook as a reference.

An attempt to correct this was made in Captain America #303–304 (March–April 1985), which establishes that the shield is made of vibranium and an "experimental iron alloy", but that did not prevent the repetition of the "adamantium-vibranium" description over the years.

The vibranium in the shield is what absorbs virtually all of the kinetic impact from any blows that the shield receives, allowing it to withstand incredible amounts of force without injuring Rogers in the process. The vibranium is also a factor in the way Rogers throws his shield: he often uses it to ricochet around a room and strike various opponents with little loss of velocity in its forward movement after each impact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamantium_(comics)

Adamantium was first created by metallurgist Dr. Myron McClain during the late 1960s in an attempt to recreate the unique Vibranium-steel alloy of Captain America's shield, though Adamantium contains no Vibranium.

While McClain is unable to duplicate the process or discover the unknown element that created the alloy, he does create a material that is very similar on a molecular level and is almost as durable.

Adamantium is created by mixing several chemical resins together; the exact formula is a secret. After the resins are mixed together, the adamantium can be molded into different shapes for approximately eight minutes as long as the mixture is kept at a temperature of 1,500 °F (816°C).

Adamantium's extremely stable molecular structure prevents it from being further molded after this eight-minute time period even if the temperature is high enough to keep it in its liquified form. In its solid form, it is colorless, shiny, and resembles high-grade steel or titanium. It is at least somewhat magnetic, since Magneto has manipulated it on multiple occasions

 

[Checkmate]

:scratches head:

That doesn't make sense.

He's trying to duplicate the vibranium-steel alloy. Ok.

I'm going to duplicate a bread recipe (a "flour-water-egg alloy".)

I can't do that without using the materials in the original.

This scientist "discovered adamantium" in trying to make the vibranium-steel alloy. How did he do that without using vibranium?

That's like me making my bread without using one of the key components, like flour. Hey, guys! I made a cheese-water-egg alloy that's exactly like bread!

In checking it seems that you're right adamantium contains no vibranium but it doesn't make sense it could be "discovered" in trying to make alloy out of something that's not in the alloy you're making! AHHH!! I've gone crosseyed

Clearly after realizing he couldn't duplicate the alloy used in the shield via attempts at vibranium-iron alloys (this took decades, mind you) he obviously started experimenting in other methods. One of which, most likely by surprised, resulted in adamantium.

Accidental discoveries happen all the time while attempting to do something completely different.

Again, if adamantium was the same thing in Cap's shield -- a vibranium-steel alloy -- it would be the same thing in Cap's shield. It wouldn't be called something completely different with completely different properties. Even if the mix was slightly different, it would still be a vibranium-steel alloy. I challenge you to find anything in the wiki saying, without question, that adamantium is a vibranium-steel alloy. The closest you'll find is steel.

He was trying to make a cake but ended up making a pie instead.

Look at it this way. One day he's in the lab while making a cake, and some of the batter (vibranium) falls into a little cement (steel) he has nearby for whatever reason. When it hardens, he realizes that hey, that's some pretty solid stuff. So he starts experimenting trying to reproduce the result. Unfortunately, all of his intentional batter-cement mixtures turn out horribly. Then one day he's getting really frustrated and knocks over a glass of water he was drinking. The water (the "chemical resins" used in adamantium) falls into some cement and.. bam! He discovers a pretty damn good alternative to his original accident. And it doesn't have an ounce of batter (vibranium) in it.

 

[Capt_Piett]

Which vibranium is it that melts metal? Is that arctic vibranium?

 

[coolghoul]

Clearly after realizing he couldn't duplicate the alloy used in the shield via attempts at vibranium-iron alloys (this took decades, mind you) he obviously started experimenting in other methods. One of which, most likely by surprised, resulted in adamantium.

Accidental discoveries happen all the time while attempting to do something completely different.

Again, if adamantium was the same thing in Cap's shield -- a vibranium-steel alloy -- it would be the same thing in Cap's shield. It wouldn't be called something completely different with completely different properties. Even if the mix was slightly different, it would still be a vibranium-steel alloy. I challenge you to find anything in the wiki saying, without question, that adamantium is a vibranium-steel alloy. The closest you'll find is steel.

He was trying to make a cake but ended up making a pie instead.

Look at it this way. One day he's in the lab while making a cake, and some of the batter (vibranium) falls into a little cement (steel) he has nearby for whatever reason. When it hardens, he realizes that hey, that's some pretty solid stuff. So he starts experimenting trying to reproduce the result. Unfortunately, all of his intentional batter-cement mixtures turn out horribly. Then one day he's getting really frustrated and knocks over a glass of water he was drinking. The water (the "chemical resins" used in adamantium) falls into some cement and.. bam! He discovers a pretty damn good alternative to his original accident. And it doesn't have an ounce of batter (vibranium) in it.

It took me a little bit of head-scratching but when I did re-read carefully, your analogy seems exactly what I understood from the wiki entries.

I was reading the JLA/Avengers crossover TPB and in it (spoilers) Superman ends up using Captain America's shield for a while. He really likes it and idly enquires whether he could get one and Thor tells him that there's none like it in the Marvel universe. Which had left me wondering if the shield truly was that unique since I too thought it was made from adamantium and we know (Wolverine and tons of other things like adamantium handcuffs etc.) that people have used adamantium a whole lot in the Marvel universe.

 

[hyzmarca]

Again, if adamantium was the same thing in Cap's shield -- a vibranium-steel alloy -- it would be the same thing in Cap's shield. It wouldn't be called something completely different with completely different properties.

Bainite , pearlite, austinite, martensite, ferrite, cementite, and ledburite are all very different things with different names and different proterties. They're also all microstructual phases of steel. Sometimes, alloys have very different proterties, even when they're made of the exact same materials, depending the molecular configuration of the alloy.

But current marvel canon does say that Adamantium doesn't contain vibranium. though, like anything else, this may be subject to retcon, possibly by Spiderman selling his baby to the devil.

 

[Checkmate]

Bainite , pearlite, austinite, martensite, ferrite, cementite, and ledburite are all very different things with different names and different proterties. They're also all microstructual phases of steel. Sometimes, alloys have very different proterties, even when they're made of the exact same materials, depending the molecular configuration of the alloy.

Yes, but adamantium is specifically not a vibranium-steel alloy. If it were simply a variation of the alloy used in Cap's shield, it would be a vibranium-steel alloy -- which it specifically isn't. Which was my point. They both have steel as a part of their composition, but that's where the similarities end.

 

[YLu]

As luck would have it, the answer, straight from the source material, has recently been posted here.