An unsolved mystery

[Lance]

Eh...Crispy Master looked that way, because he used up all his Regenerations, and his body attempted a Regeration, I believe. So, I don't think it's a problem, that there's a little bit left, just not enough for a full fledged Regeneration

That's how I saw it.

Realistically, it isn't that the 13th original incarnation of a Time Lord can't regenerate anymore... it's that it isn't advisable, because he isn't likely to survive if he does. The Master was a fluke in that he survived, but he didn't *really* because his 'fourteenth' body began to fall apart instantly. I think even the Doctor lampshades this by saying it's only the Master's sheer force of will that is keeping him alive when his body is practically the walking dead.

And then this '14th Master' spent the rest of his life trying to regain a way back to true life, only to find each method was only a short-term fix. Firstly by trying to harness the power of the Eye on Gallifrey, then by stealing the body of Tremas and rejuvinating himself via the Keeper of Traken, and finally culminating in trying to steal the Doctor's body, because he figured out that only a Gallifreyan body will do to truly sustain his life. Anything else, he realized, was impossible.

And then, the Time Lords resurrected him with a new life cycle. I wonder how many incarnations the 'new' Master had? We only saw a couple on screen, but I guess there was no saying that the YANA Master was the very first of his resurrected life cycle...

 

[Mr Awe]

But then, even if Smith wasn't aware of Capaldi's presence when they froze Gallifrey, why would Smith think it's the end in "The Time of the Doctor" when he's already met the Curator in "The Day of the Doctor"?

1) We don't know for a fact the Curator is a future Doctor.
2) If he is, then the Eleventh Doctor would forget about him afterwards, just like the Tenth Doctor and the War Doctor forgot.

The dialog specifically indicates that the Curator is a future version of the Doctor. And, the Curator provides important plot information for future stories, so not, it's not forgotten. In fact, it's Smith's knowledge that Gallifrey exists that influences many of his actions in Time of the Doctor.

Mr Awe

 

[The Wormhole]

Basically, it seems to me that the Doctors only remember meetings with other incarnations while they are happening. Is there anything in previous Doctor-meets-Doctor(s) stories that contradicts this? I don't recall. Anyone? (Actually, I guess it would only be contradicted if there are instances of him remembering meeting himself in episodes that aren't themselves Doctor-meets-Doctor stories.)

In The Five Doctors the Second Doctor can remember everything from The Three Doctors, even before he meets up with any of the other Doctors.

But then, even if Smith wasn't aware of Capaldi's presence when they froze Gallifrey, why would Smith think it's the end in "The Time of the Doctor" when he's already met the Curator in "The Day of the Doctor"?

1) We don't know for a fact the Curator is a future Doctor.
2) If he is, then the Eleventh Doctor would forget about him afterwards, just like the Tenth Doctor and the War Doctor forgot.

The dialog specifically indicates that the Curator is a future version of the Doctor. And, the Curator provides important plot information for future stories, so not, it's not forgotten. In fact, it's Smith's knowledge that Gallifrey exists that influences many of his actions in Time of the Doctor.

Mr Awe

It only implies the Curator is a future Doctor. Sure it's a strong implication, but an implication all the same. The next episode can go ahead an reveal the Curator is in fact just a simple museum curator and from a purely canonical point of view nothing has been contradicted.

The Eleventh Doctor doesn't actually seem to know anything he could only have gotten specifically from the Curator. In fact when Handles first identifies the planet as Gallifrey the Doctor's reaction is "that's impossible, Gallifrey is gone." An odd reaction if he still remembered someone telling him it's still around. Later when he talks about Gallifrey being in another universe he could simply be assuming the plan from Day of the Doctor worked.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

^ He probably meant "gone" in the sense it was in a pocket dimension and couldn't possibly be the actual planet they were looking at.

It wasn't even orange.

 

[Mr Awe]

Basically, it seems to me that the Doctors only remember meetings with other incarnations while they are happening. Is there anything in previous Doctor-meets-Doctor(s) stories that contradicts this? I don't recall. Anyone? (Actually, I guess it would only be contradicted if there are instances of him remembering meeting himself in episodes that aren't themselves Doctor-meets-Doctor stories.)

In The Five Doctors the Second Doctor can remember everything from The Three Doctors, even before he meets up with any of the other Doctors.

1) We don't know for a fact the Curator is a future Doctor.
2) If he is, then the Eleventh Doctor would forget about him afterwards, just like the Tenth Doctor and the War Doctor forgot.

The dialog specifically indicates that the Curator is a future version of the Doctor. And, the Curator provides important plot information for future stories, so not, it's not forgotten. In fact, it's Smith's knowledge that Gallifrey exists that influences many of his actions in Time of the Doctor.

Mr Awe

It only implies the Curator is a future Doctor. Sure it's a strong implication, but an implication all the same. The next episode can go ahead an reveal the Curator is in fact just a simple museum curator and from a purely canonical point of view nothing has been contradicted.

The Eleventh Doctor doesn't actually seem to know anything he could only have gotten specifically from the Curator. In fact when Handles first identifies the planet as Gallifrey the Doctor's reaction is "that's impossible, Gallifrey is gone." An odd reaction if he still remembered someone telling him it's still around. Later when he talks about Gallifrey being in another universe he could simply be assuming the plan from Day of the Doctor worked.

I just don't see that interpretation at all. The Curator was definitely a future Doctor and he passed on knowledge that Gallifrey Falls No More. The search for Gallifrey is on!

Mr Awe

 

[Alidar Jarok]

But then, even if Smith wasn't aware of Capaldi's presence when they froze Gallifrey, why would Smith think it's the end in "The Time of the Doctor" when he's already met the Curator in "The Day of the Doctor"?

1) We don't know for a fact the Curator is a future Doctor.
2) If he is, then the Eleventh Doctor would forget about him afterwards, just like the Tenth Doctor and the War Doctor forgot.

The dialog specifically indicates that the Curator is a future version of the Doctor. And, the Curator provides important plot information for future stories, so not, it's not forgotten. In fact, it's Smith's knowledge that Gallifrey exists that influences many of his actions in Time of the Doctor.

Mr Awe

The word maybe was used to often in that scene for anything to have been explicitly stated.

 

[Sindatur]

1) We don't know for a fact the Curator is a future Doctor.
2) If he is, then the Eleventh Doctor would forget about him afterwards, just like the Tenth Doctor and the War Doctor forgot.

The dialog specifically indicates that the Curator is a future version of the Doctor. And, the Curator provides important plot information for future stories, so not, it's not forgotten. In fact, it's Smith's knowledge that Gallifrey exists that influences many of his actions in Time of the Doctor.

Mr Awe

The word maybe was used to often in that scene for anything to have been explicitly stated.

He definitely acknowledges that he has a "Who" nose

 

[Mr Awe]

The intent is perfectly clear.

 

[Skellington]

So if the Matt Smith Doctor believed he was the last Doctor, then the Capaldi Doctor was not part of his plan to save Gallifrey in "Day of the Doctor". If the Capaldi Doctor was not necessary, then why was he there?

Maybe to influence the specifics of Gallifrey's rescue (eg the nature of the pocket universe it was transferred to).

Ideally, it would not to be to help save Gallifrey per se, as that would mean an ontological and predestination paradox of the kind which, Blink and maybe a few other episodes aside, are hardly satisfying on an intellectual or aesthetic level. (The Doctor's tomb on Trenzalore and his Capaldi incarnation are supposedly mutually exclusive, unable to exist in the same draft of the universe's history; yet the former is referenced in the same episode as we first see the latter.)

Or he's turned evil and is trying to sabotage it.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

The Doctor's tomb on Trenzalore and his Capaldi incarnation are supposedly mutually exclusive

I wouldn't say that's entirely clear at this point. Perhaps the Doctor's tomb will still be on Trenzalore, but will come to be there through circumstances that have yet to unfold (and which we might never see unfold on the show itself, since they're not likely to ever do a story about the Doctor's real, ultimate, final death). Or perhaps not. It could go either way.

 

[RoJoHen]

The Doctor's tomb on Trenzalore and his Capaldi incarnation are supposedly mutually exclusive

I wouldn't say that's entirely clear at this point. Perhaps the Doctor's tomb will still be on Trenzalore, but will come to be there through circumstances that have yet to unfold (and which we might never see unfold on the show itself, since they're not likely to ever do a story about the Doctor's real, ultimate, final death). Or perhaps not. It could go either way.

Indeed. At least, in theory, that Crack might still pop up again. The Time Lords were sending the message through that crack because it was the weakest point of the "wall" between universes.

It seems logical that Trenzalore would still be a likely place to encounter the Time Lords again somewhere down the road. The Doctor isn't finished there.

 

[Skellington]

The Doctor's tomb on Trenzalore and his Capaldi incarnation are supposedly mutually exclusive

I wouldn't say that's entirely clear at this point. Perhaps the Doctor's tomb will still be on Trenzalore, but will come to be there through circumstances that have yet to unfold (and which we might never see unfold on the show itself, since they're not likely to ever do a story about the Doctor's real, ultimate, final death). Or perhaps not. It could go either way.

I might agree with you, except for the detail that Clara only saw eleven incarnations while journeying through the Doctor's timeline. Basically, the "scar" through which she travelled would seemingly need to be some kind of fake.

 

[RoJoHen]

I might agree with you, except for the detail that Clara only saw eleven incarnations while journeying through the Doctor's timeline. Basically, the "scar" through which she travelled would seemingly need to be some kind of fake.

Until an episode comes along and disproves it, this is how I see that situation.

The point in which she entered the "scar" was in Smith's present time. She only saw his past lives because, at that particular point in his life, that's all that had happened. Plus, the Great Intelligence had entered his timeline in the same place, altering his past. His future was in flux. Maybe the Doctor had a future, maybe he didn't (he was dying, after all). His future lives may have simply been something she couldn't access.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

1) We don't know for a fact the Curator is a future Doctor.
2) If he is, then the Eleventh Doctor would forget about him afterwards, just like the Tenth Doctor and the War Doctor forgot.

The dialog specifically indicates that the Curator is a future version of the Doctor. And, the Curator provides important plot information for future stories, so not, it's not forgotten. In fact, it's Smith's knowledge that Gallifrey exists that influences many of his actions in Time of the Doctor.

Mr Awe

The word maybe was used to often in that scene for anything to have been explicitly stated.

While my personal feeling is that the man is an elderly fourth Doctor (thorugh magical means, I suppose) rather than a future Doctor who has, for reasons unknown, taken on the face of an elderly fourth Doctor, after rewatching "The Day of the Doctor" I'm entertaining an alternate theory.

The man in the gallery is the Moment.

We already know that the Moment can go into the Doctor's mind and take a form that the Doctor will recognize. We've seen that the Moment has knowledge of both past and future. And wouldn't the Moment know if Gallifrey had been saved or not?

In the shack, the War Doctor needed to see Rose. In the gallery, the eleventh Doctor needed to see an old man (especially since Clara said there was an old man lurking about).

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

^ Well, we don't know what the Doctor did with the Moment.

 

[The Wormhole]

The Curator being the Moment is also my preferred theory. Hell, takes things a step further, and try to imagine Billie Piper in the scene instead of Tom Baker. It actually works pretty much the same, aside from the fact that she's not an old man.

 

[Photoman15]

Oh Jeez....it was a future Doctor who either:
1. Used the 4th Doctor's face and aged normally (eventually taking the job as the Curator). or
2. Regened taking this (older looking version) of the 4th Doctor, seeing as he knows what he would look like.

I have feeling we'll get some groundwork in the upcoming series when they (try to) explain why the Doctor looks like Caecilus (and maybe Froebisher).http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0057500/?ref_=tt_cl_t7

 

[Candlelight]

The Curator is not a future incarnation of the Doctor.

He was just a guest appearance by Tom Baker to make up for his absence in the 20th anniversary special.

Hell, if anything I interpreted the scene as the Curator was the fourth Doctor. They all seem to continue "living" after the regenerate if the multi-Doctor stories are to be believed.

 

[Mr Awe]

Oh Jeez....it was a future Doctor who either:
1. Used the 4th Doctor's face and aged normally (eventually taking the job as the Curator). or
2. Regened taking this (older looking version) of the 4th Doctor, seeing as he knows what he would look like.

I have feeling we'll get some groundwork in the upcoming series when they (try to) explain why the Doctor looks like Caecilus (and maybe Froebisher).

I know! He took on the face of an old favorite. It's a future Doctor. The intent of the scene was crystal clear. An older Doctor talking to his younger self.

I'm not sure why some feel the need to take something so simple, over analyze it, and twist it into something else.

Mr Awe

 

[Photoman15]

The Curator is not a future incarnation of the Doctor.

He was just a guest appearance by Tom Baker to make up for his absence in the 20th anniversary special.

Hell, if anything I interpreted the scene as the Curator was the fourth Doctor. They all seem to continue "living" after the regenerate if the multi-Doctor stories are to be believed.

Where the heck do you get that (last paragraph) from? That is NOT at all what is depicted in Multi-Doctor stories.