Ambassador Class Variations

[yotsuya]

The Ambassador Class was initially designed by Andrew Probert. It is found in a painting, his ship size comparison chart, and the ship wall in the Ent D conference room. It is longer and sleeker than later designs. Probert determined it was 1720 feet long. It has also been listed as 1721 and 1725 feet long.

When it came time to build a model of the ship, Rick Sternback scaled his drawings to the 4 foot miniature of Enterprise D and determined the size should be 1570 feet. The model was built to that scale by Greg Jein.

Jein kept the Enterprise C model and made a replacement before the next appearance in Data's Day as the Zhukov. The configuration is slightly different. The secondary hull and neck are slid forward, as are the nacelles (though it does not appear they are as much forward). The lower sensor dome on the saucer has an added surround like the Excelsior. The aft hanger is different, and there is a lower hanger that looks like an upside down Excelsior hanger. Some damage occurred sometime between shooting and when the model was photographed. The nacelles have dropped on the pylons so the pylons look shorter and the nacelles lower, but screen caps so they should be at the same position as the Enterprise C.

More recently, Tobias Richter (a German CG artist) worked with Probert to flesh out his original design. There are some changes from the original sources, such as two torpedo tubes instead of one, but otherwise is a fairly accurate portrayal of Probert's vision.

There is also another drawing from the development that has the final saucer and nacelles with a secondary hull more in line with Probert's concept.

That makes five different versions of this class. Only 2 of them are officially canon. I think the Ambassador should be an earlier version like Richter rendered, but I'd like to see it done more like the production render.

But there is very little that actually documents the differences. I feel Ambassador plans in my future.

 

[jackoverfull]

May I add another one?

I’ve always loved the ambassador class so, when writing a story set in 2380, I imagined a 2380 refit adding some sovereign-inspired features to it. I was learning blender at the time, and so...

It’s just a crude, 15 years old model, but should give the idea...

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[yotsuya]

Well, I've been staring at this ship (both models and all the drawings I could find), for the last week and it just jelled after my initial post.

Here are the designs that exist and where they fit.

1 - Prototype - This unrealized version is longer with longer nacelles.
2 - 1st refit - This is the sketch Rick Sternbach did that incorporates Probert's secondary hull and his revised saucer and nacelles.
3 - 2nd refit - Enterprise C Variant
4 - 3rd refit - Zhukov/Yamaguchi/Excalibur Variant
5 - Prototype refit - this is Tobias Richter's version. It features some of the prototype design and some updates that are actually closer to the Galaxy class.
6 - 2380's refit as suggested by @jackoverfull

My goal is to accurately draw the 2nd and 3rd refits and us those and that sketch of the 1st refit and Probert's original sketch to reverse-engineer the most fitting prototype design. First some rough drawings to get the shapes and sizes.

 

[Dukhat]

On Doug Drexler’s now-defunct blog, Michael Okuda mentioned that Probert’s version of the Enterprise-C/Ambassador class was supposed to have an elliptical saucer like the Enterprise-D, but when Sternbach designed his version, he made the saucer round because it was cheaper for Jein to build a round saucer than an elliptical one. For some reason, Richter made the saucer round for his CGI model of Probert’s design when it should have been elliptical per Okuda. But Richter was working with Probert, and Probert never mentioned this (or perhaps he just preferred the saucer to be round after the fact.)

 

[yotsuya]

On Doug Drexler’s now-defunct blog, Michael Okuda mentioned that Probert’s version of the Enterprise-C/Ambassador class was supposed to have an elliptical saucer like the Enterprise-D, but when Sternbach designed his version, he made the saucer round because it was cheaper for Jein to build a round saucer than an elliptical one. For some reason, Richter made the saucer round for his CGI model of Probert’s design when it should have been elliptical per Okuda. But Richter was working with Probert, and Probert never mentioned this (or perhaps he just preferred the saucer to be round after the fact.)

I've heard the same thing, but I haven't heard which way it was supposed to be elliptical. Like D or like E? So I'm assuming round, which is what Sternbach noted. And part of what I look at anytime I assess these older designs within complete information is to look at how other ships of the era came out, and all the ones with wide elliptical saucers are kit bash from Enterprise D models. So I take that to mean those ships are contemporary with D and a lot newer than the Ambassador Class. Also, considering how well Richter's renders align with Probert's painting, I'm not so sure it was supposed to be elliptical in the first place. I post some comparisons later when I start messing with graphics.

 

[Dukhat]

I've heard the same thing, but I haven't heard which way it was supposed to be elliptical. Like D or like E? So I'm assuming round, which is what Sternbach noted. And part of what I look at anytime I assess these older designs within complete information is to look at how other ships of the era came out, and all the ones with wide elliptical saucers are kit bash from Enterprise D models. So I take that to mean those ships are contemporary with D and a lot newer than the Ambassador Class. Also, considering how well Richter's renders align with Probert's painting, I'm not so sure it was supposed to be elliptical in the first place. I post some comparisons later when I start messing with graphics.

IIRC, Okuda stated that it was supposed to be elliptical like the Enterprise-D, but not quite as severe. Basically a mid-point between the round Excelsior saucer and the D's saucer.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter because the only canon appearance of the design was the wall sculpture display, which doesn't give an indication of whether the saucer is round or elliptical.

 

[jackoverfull]

You are probably already familiar with this page, which was essential in building my model 15 years ago.

https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/ambassador.htm

 

[yotsuya]

You are probably already familiar with this page, which was essential in building my model 15 years ago.

https://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/ambassador.htm

Yup, very aware of it. In general I love that site, though I disagree with some of their opinions. For me the Excelsior is 467 meters long and the Enterprise D 6 foot model has 2 decks around the sauce rim.

 

[Dukhat]

On the subject of the Ambassador class (and variants thereof), I've always been amazed that we've never seen much of this class, or any other starship classes utilizing parts from it, despite the fact that someone thought it was prominent enough to name one of them the Enterprise.

When considering the "Lost Years," roughly the 70 year span of time between 2293 (the framing scenes of Star Trek: Generations) and 2364 (the start of TNG), it doesn't seem like Starfleet made all that many advances in starship design. Judging by chronological starship registries, most of that time they were just using Excelsiors, Mirandas, Constellations, Oberths (all designed in the 2280's) and to a lesser extent the Centaur, Curry and Raging Queen types (all based on the Excelsior) and they didn't start producing more advanced ships such as the Challenger, Springfield, Cheyenne, New Orleans, Nebula, Freedom, Niagara and Galaxy classes until the 2350's and '60's. So where did the Ambassador fit in? And why are their registries only 1XXXX and 2XXXX when the TMP-movie-era ships have registries of 3XXXX, 4XXXX and 5XXXX? It almost makes it look like the Ambassador was a one-off design that just didn't go anywhere and died out in favor of mass-producing older designs, which doesn't quite make sense in real life.

 

[jackoverfull]

My fanon is that only a relatively few were produced for two reasons:

1) after khitomer Starfleet didn’t want to seem too threatening, so they avoided building many big capital ships and concentrated on building excelsiors and maintaining Mirandas and constellations.

2) the ambassador class was the first Starfleet attempt at a huge starship and it ended up very costly, they only produced a few, then went back to the drawing board to design the galaxy class...which ended up delayed by many years, being a titanic task, justifying the gap between the destruction of the enterprise-c and the christening of the D.

 

[Ottens]

You may have read my "Designing the Enterprise-C" already, but posting it here just in case.

I also believe Probert's intent was a D-style elliptical, or oval, saucer: wider rather than longer.

 

[jackoverfull]

I read that when it came out and loved it.

As I said, the -C is my favorite enterprise, I’m very attached to it. Probably has something to do with me having a miniature as a child (and someone stole it!).

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

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I know I've posted this else where on this site, but I forget where & what thread.

Hopefully this helps.

 

[yotsuya]

A fun observation that fits with where I am going - when you overlay the gold conference room relief model and Probert's profile drawing, the relief model is taller. And as with all the details on those gold relief models, they are off from the originals in many ways, but they made an effort to get the lengths right so I intend to honor that.

 

[Dukhat]

Pity the poor Ambassador class, the ugly stepchild of the Star Trek starships. Let's review its short history:

- During preproduction for TNG, Probert wanted the Ambassador class to be the 'guest' starship in episodes which called for another vessel to be seen. But the budget-conscious producers didn't want to spend more money building models if the show was unpopular and got canceled, not to mention the fact that they already had the Excelsior, Reliant, Grissom and Enterprise-A filming models at their disposal. Rightly understanding that those models would be chronologically too old for a show set 80 years after the TMP movies, Probert instead made a matte painting of the Ambassador class to be used instead of a model. But this was nixed, and every guest starship ended up being a movie model (with the exception of the Stargazer, which also would have been a reuse of the Enterprise-A had Greg Jein not built a different model in time and under budget) until "Yesterday's Enterprise" (see next.)

-For YE, the ship was redesigned to be more budget-friendly, as the producers again didn't even want a new model built and would rather have had the Excelsior or the Enterprise-A models used instead.

-Jein then makes another model from his Enterprise-C mold, which was used on screen only three more times for only a few seconds each. After its final appearance in the DS9 series pilot, the model suffered damage and was crated up, never to be seen on screen again. Because of this, the model was not available to be scanned into a CGI model for the DS9 CGI fleet scenes in the final few seasons.

-For TNG's "The Pegasus," Rick Sternbach drew up concept art for the eponymous ship using Ambassador parts (which presumably Jein would have used from his Enterprise-C mold.) But the decision was made to use the Grissom model instead, despite the fact that the Pegasus was only supposed to be a few years older than the Enterprise-D.

-For Star Trek Generations, the Ambassador class model was going to be used as one of the evacuation ships at the end of the film, but because of the costs of refurbishing it for the scene (as ILM did for the Nebula class model), they used the Reliant and the Grissom models instead.

-A commercially available model kit of the Enterprise-C was not available until 1999. By that time DS9 was in its final season and by then all of the fleet scenes were CGI, so no model kits or kitbashes thereof would have been used from it.

No other Starfleet vessels ever seen in TNG, DS9 or VOY utilized Ambassador class parts, other than the wreck of the Niagara class Princeton in BoBW, which used the secondary hull from the Enterprise-C mold.

 

[yotsuya]

Here are some preliminary drawings.

First we have Enterprises A, B, C, and D (using the shorter 1570' scale).

Then we have the 4 major versions of the Ambassador Class. Probert's original, Sternbach's interpretation of the original, Sternbach's final design, and Greg Jein's Zhukov.

 

[jackoverfull]

Pity the poor Ambassador class, the ugly stepchild of the Star Trek starships. Let's review its short history:

- During preproduction for TNG, Probert wanted the Ambassador class to be the 'guest' starship in episodes which called for another vessel to be seen. But the budget-conscious producers didn't want to spend more money building models if the show was unpopular and got canceled, not to mention the fact that they already had the Excelsior, Reliant, Grissom and Enterprise-A filming models at their disposal. Rightly understanding that those models would be chronologically too old for a show set 80 years after the TMP movies, Probert instead made a matte painting of the Ambassador class to be used instead of a model. But this was nixed, and every guest starship ended up being a movie model (with the exception of the Stargazer, which also would have been a reuse of the Enterprise-A had Greg Jein not built a different model in time and under budget) until "Yesterday's Enterprise" (see next.)

-For YE, the ship was redesigned to be more budget-friendly, as the producers again didn't even want a new model built and would rather have had the Excelsior or the Enterprise-A models used instead.

-Jein then makes another model from his Enterprise-C mold, which was used on screen only three more times for only a few seconds each. After its final appearance in the DS9 series pilot, the model suffered damage and was crated up, never to be seen on screen again. Because of this, the model was not available to be scanned into a CGI model for the DS9 CGI fleet scenes in the final few seasons.

-For TNG's "The Pegasus," Rick Sternbach drew up concept art for the eponymous ship using Ambassador parts (which presumably Jein would have used from his Enterprise-C mold.) But the decision was made to use the Grissom model instead, despite the fact that the Pegasus was only supposed to be a few years older than the Enterprise-D.

-For Star Trek Generations, the Ambassador class model was going to be used as one of the evacuation ships at the end of the film, but because of the costs of refurbishing it for the scene (as ILM did for the Nebula class model), they used the Reliant and the Grissom models instead.

-A commercially available model kit of the Enterprise-C was not available until 1999. By that time DS9 was in its final season and by then all of the fleet scenes were CGI, so no model kits or kitbashes thereof would have been used from it.

No other Starfleet vessels ever seen in TNG, DS9 or VOY utilized Ambassador class parts, other than the wreck of the Niagara class Princeton in BoBW, which used the secondary hull from the Enterprise-C mold.

i’ll add that the main reason that the refit constitution model was never used (and therefore the constellation was built) was that the model was truly huge, heavy and hard to film, also because it was originally built for the front light/back light technique used on TMP, not for the simpler but more limited chroma key Trek used afterwards, so everyone hated filming it.

 

[yotsuya]

i’ll add that the main reason that the refit constitution model was never used (and therefore the constellation was built) was that the model was truly huge, heavy and hard to film, also because it was originally built for the front light/back light technique used on TMP, not for the simpler but more limited chroma key Trek used afterwards, so everyone hated filming it.

Well, I don't think the last one was a reason after TWOK. And by TNG it had been mostly repainted and was well suited to blue-screen FX filming. But it was big. It was 100 inches long (just over 8'). Making it the largest miniature in in Trek at the time. The Excelsior was 7 foot, but narrower. The Ent D was 6 foot and wider (and then they switched to the 4 foot Ent D). But the main reason I've always heard that they didn't use the TMP Refit was because it was the movie hero model and the movie production didn't want it used for TNG. There wasn't much they could say about the sets, but the model was off limits. And the only reason we got the Stargazer, Ent C and TOS 1701 was because of Greg Jein. He really made them happen. Otherwise we might have seen even more Miranda, Oberth, and Excelsior class appearances.

 

[Dukhat]

But the main reason I've always heard that they didn't use the TMP Refit was because it was the movie hero model and the movie production didn't want it used for TNG.

That is not correct. They were planning on using the Enterprise-A as the Stargazer for "The Battle." Geordi LaForge even had a line of dialogue stating that the ship was Constitution class, before they overdubbed it with "Constellation" in post-production once Jein got his new model built, which was based on the NCC-7100 kitbash in Picard's ready room (which was originally never meant to be the Stargazer's design; it was just a generic model built for set dressing for the ready room.)

 

[jackoverfull]

Well, I don't think the last one was a reason after TWOK. And by TNG it had been mostly repainted and was well suited to blue-screen FX filming.

They had to repaint it for every movie and the original paint still kept popping up and cause issues with the blue screen.

The Excelsior was 7 foot, but narrower. T

It also had an internal lighting system that was easier to handle and similarly a more practical mount.

the original “big” enterprise-d model was similarly not liked and eventually a middle-sized model was built and used unless saucer separation was required. Generations used the original big one for all scenes (apart from a couple of quick CGI shots and possibly some archive footage) but that’s only because the other had been modified and was being used for All Good Things.

. But the main reason I've always heard that they didn't use the TMP Refit was because it was the movie hero model and the movie production didn't want it used for TNG. There wasn't much they could say about the sets, but the model was off limits

this is just a legend, as Dukhat correctly says:

That is not correct. They were planning on using the Enterprise-A as the Stargazer for "The Battle." Geordi LaForge even had a line of dialogue stating that the ship was Constitution class, before they overdubbed it with "Constellation" in post-production

once Jein got his new model built, which was based on the NCC-7100 kitbash in Picard's ready room (which was originally never meant to be the Stargazer's design; it was just a generic model built for set dressing for the ready room

not sure about the original intentions, but by then that was clearly “Picard’s old ship’s spot”: a few episodes prior they had replaced the Constellation model with a Constitution-refit one just for this reason...and so they ended up having a constellation in one of the few episodes there is a Constitution in the ready room!