A Matt Decker ?

[James Wright]

In TOS episode DOOMSDAY MACHINE did Commodore Matt Decker violate any standing orders by not warning Starfleet of the doomsday machine?
If the solar systems that were destroyed by the doomsday machine were uninhabited, the Constellation could have gone to warp long enough to warn Starfleet and still keep track of the machine.

JDW

 

[Forbin]

Okay, I'll tell him.

 

[James Wright]

FUNNY! Try this, did Captain Kirk have the authority to have Spock remove Commodore Decker from command of the Enterprise?

JDW

 

[Ward Fowler]

Nope. However, Kirk did have the loyalty of his crew, which made all the difference.

 

[Shaw]

JDW said:
In TOS episode DOOMSDAY MACHINE did Commodore Matt Decker violate any standing orders by not warning Starfleet of the doomsday machine?

The question is wouldn't Kirk have been under the same standing order?

The Planet Killer can travel at warp speed and effected communications over a very wide range.

Further, much like the Enterprise, the Constellation was most likely attacked before it knew what was happening. It was investigating the forth planet braking up, and had no reason to assume that anything non-natural was happening. Odds are that by the time Decker knew what was going on, the Constellation's warp drive was already down.

The battle with the Constellation weaken the Planet Killer keeping it in system L-374 to refuel itself rather than heading on to the Rigel system. It was that delay that allowed the Enterprise to join the Constellation.

I would point out that even knowing that the Planet Killer attacked the Constellation, the Enterprise was still damaged to the point of not being able to warn Star Fleet before it would have reached Rigel.

Decker's only mistake was beaming down his crew to the third planet. But there really wasn't any way for him to know that the Planet Killer would have eventually broken off it's attack. Specially as it had continued to attack even after his crew was off the ship.

 

[Duncan MacLeod]

In a sense Kirk did. He was the Captain of record of the Enterprise. As such he is responsible for everything that goes on aboard her. Starfleet excercizes command through him and his orders supercede anyone elses aboard until and unless he is relieved of command.

By invoking "my personal authority as captain of the Enterprise" he was basically daring Decker to relieve him of command. Decker backed down.

 

[EnsignHarper]

Anyone forget the 'heavy subspace interference' which cut both ships off from any decent communication? It happens to Enterprise long before they discover Constellation. And yes, that is probably a part of the DM's defensive/offensive package - cut off anybody you might be attacking long before you attack and destroy them - no matter what Spock says about it being a by-product of the machine's reactor.

 

[Ward Fowler]

Duncan MacLeod said:
In a sense Kirk did. He was the Captain of record of the Enterprise. As such he is responsible for everything that goes on aboard her. Starfleet excercizes command through him and his orders supercede anyone elses aboard until and unless he is relieved of command.

By invoking "my personal authority as captain of the Enterprise" he was basically daring Decker to relieve him of command. Decker backed down.

Hate to disagree with you, but Commodore Decker was well within his rights to take command of the Enterprise, despite whatever orders Captain Kirk gave his crew. Decker was a line officer that outranked Kirk, so he would have had the authority to take command even if Kirk had stayed on the Enterprise. Technically, the only one who could have over-ridden Decker would have been a superior officer or the CMO if he had reason to believe Decker was unfit for command. The only reason Decker was relieved of command is that the crew respected Kirk and were loyal to him.

 

[Duncan MacLeod]

You're right and you're not right. Any superior officer can effectively take command by simply issuing orders. It's when the actual commanding officer balks that you get into a gray area. Although Decker had a legal right to issue orders to Kirk's crew, if Kirk has ordered them to ignore said orders and follow his as the commanding officer of record, by which I mean the officer Starfleet assigned to command the Enterprise. Then Decker is left with three options:

A.) Relieve Kirk of command.
B.) Relieve Kirk of command and have him arrested for insobordination.
C.) Accept that Kirk is Captain of the Enterprise and let him command her his way.

He chose C. Which, BTW, wouldn't have prevented him from exercising A or B when they got back to a starbase.

I'm off to Vegas in an hour so I'll catch your response when I get back.

 

[Ward Fowler]

Interesting point. I hadn't considered that. However, I still think its possible that Decker didn't choose options A or B because he felt that the crew wouldn't follow his orders, no matter the circumstance, without Kirk's blessing.

 

[Kagan]

Ward Fowler said:
Interesting point. I hadn't considered that. However, I still think its possible that Decker didn't choose options A or B because he felt that the crew wouldn't follow his orders, no matter the circumstance, without Kirk's blessing.

And why should they follow Decker's orders in good faith? The entire crew of the USS Constellation was dead after following the command of Decker. On the other hand, the crew of the USS Enterprise had lost only the occasional redshirt by following the commands of Kirk. Let's do the math...

a) Serve Decker with a 100% chance of death?
b) Serve Kirk with a 95% chance of life?

B....I'll take B as my final answer!!!

 

[James Wright]

Decker was a Flag Officer, Captain Kirk was a Line Officer!
Like you all tell me, LOOK IT UP!
When was the Enterprise damaged, before or after Decker took command? If memory serves, the planet killer blasted the Enterprise once, before Decker took command!

JDW

 

[Ward Fowler]

JDW said:
Decker was a Flag Officer, Captain Kirk was a Line Officer!
Like you all tell me, LOOK IT UP!
When was the Enterprise damaged, before or after Decker took command? If memory serves, the planet killer blasted the Enterprise once, before Decker took command!

JDW

Actually, if you do look it up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_Officer), you'll find its not that clear cut whether Decker is a Flag Officer or not. In the United States and Great Britain, a naval officer has to attain the rank of rear admiral or higher to be considered a flag officer. In Canada, a person with the rank of Commodore is indeed considered a flag officer. I don't honestly know how Starfleet would designate it. I also don't think civility is too much to ask for while discussing this.
If memory serves, you are correct about the fact that the Enterprise is attacked before Decker takes command.

 

[Kagan]

There is also a military question of lawful order when considering the charge of mutiny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawful_orders

The facial and body-language reactions of the Enterprise's bridge crew to the orders of Decker shows that they are internally conflicted with regards to Decker's orders.

We cannot say that Scotty or Sulu aren't professional StarFleet officers because they are. In times of combat and crisis in other episodes, they are the MOST by-the-book officers aboard the Enterprise.

The Enterprise has standard StarFleet orders with which the bridge crew would be familiar. I've often considered that Sulu obeys certain orders without question in this episode, but the others that he frowns up about are possibly in the range of "unlawful orders". However, Sulu doesn't act because he knows that Spock is more familiar with the regulations than he is.

 

[flandry84]

Anyhoo,Kirk was exactly right to tackle the DM rather than warp away to comms distance.Starfleet could only muster one single solitary unfinished ship to defend Earth not to mention some outlying colony worlds(TMP)

 

[Trekwatcher]

Ward Fowler said:

Duncan MacLeod said:
In a sense Kirk did. He was the Captain of record of the Enterprise. As such he is responsible for everything that goes on aboard her. Starfleet excercizes command through him and his orders supercede anyone elses aboard until and unless he is relieved of command.

By invoking "my personal authority as captain of the Enterprise" he was basically daring Decker to relieve him of command. Decker backed down.

Hate to disagree with you, but Commodore Decker was well within his rights to take command of the Enterprise, despite whatever orders Captain Kirk gave his crew. Decker was a line officer that outranked Kirk, so he would have had the authority to take command even if Kirk had stayed on the Enterprise. Technically, the only one who could have over-ridden Decker would have been a superior officer or the CMO if he had reason to believe Decker was unfit for command. The only reason Decker was relieved of command is that the crew respected Kirk and were loyal to him.

Sort of. Decker allowed himself to be relieved, IMHO, for several reasons. First, it was obvious the crew was largely united against him and were unhappy with his decisions (especially after McCoy's publicly asserted strong desire to certify him unfit for command, in front of the entire bridge crew). Second, Kirk's use of the term "personal authority" implied that Kirk was willing to go to, and possibly beyond, the limits of his power to remove Decker. Third, it seems to me that if Decker did not relinquish command at that time, given that the bridge crew had obviously overheard the dressing down Kirk gives Decker over the ship-to-ship, Decker may have feared that if he did not step down the crew might not follow his orders, and would instead look to Spock to force the issue.

This sequence is one of the top scenes in all of TOS, IMHO.

 

[Plum]

This question of Kirk relieving Decker of command is an oldy. I find that the creators of Trek, being mostly ex Pacific theatre guys in WWII, had a natural understanding of navy culture.

Rules, regulations, and rank are one thing, er, three things. Anyho', uhh, However, any man who stands up and takes responsibility might be bending or breaking one or all of the above but that's doesn't mean they can't. Like "the Caine Mutiny" (classic oldy film kids), this adventurous ep of Trek was on full Horatio Hornblower mode. The conflict between Decker and everyone else was the story and, I suspect, this is why Decker was the ONLY example of a commodore in command of a starship (excluding the war games lead by Commodore Bob Wesley in The Ultimate Computer).

It's hard to say if Kirk overstepped his authority when he was the authority on the big e. But it's just as hard to say Decker was indeed following regulations when he took command, as he insisted. After all, he was in no condition to command and certainly took advantage of regulations while ignoring his own shocked and delusional state of mind.

Ultimately, whomever is in command on any ship, even today, is the person who is given command first. Kirk was responsible for the enterprise, not Decker. I think star fleet legal would see Deckers taking command as crass if technically by the book. After all, Kirk wasn't dead, he was still in command but merely out of communication temporarily. Decker clearly overstepped.

imho.

 

[Nebusj]

Is it worth pointing out that Decker was perfectly right in his assertion that the planet killer could and should be attacked now, as the Enterprise -- with the Constellation available as a missile -- was perfectly able to destroy the planet-killer?

Going back to raise a fleet (which I admit would be my impulse) would give the planet-killer the chance to escape, and with no really tight bounds on what its speed and range are it might get very thoroughly lost until other star systems were destroyed.

 

[Plum]

Erm, well they didn't know a starship could affect it. Kirk only had the idea when Sulu noticed a power drop after Decker flew the shuttle into the thing.

Attack now was insane, given the current evidence. Spock made it clear this wouldn't work ("all it got you was a wrecked ship and a dead crew").

Spock kept insisting they needed to warn star fleet command and Decker just ignored this logic. Decker was nuts. Nuts!

 

[pookha]

hmm the idea that decker could have resisted even after talking with kirk but instead decided to step down was interesting.
but i would throw in another factor. decker's respect for kirk.
once jim dressed him down and verbally backed spock matt may have respected that.