How is that ridiculous? It's a business. Expanding your audience is always good.
Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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Yup. Which was pretty much my point. Even if we go with his "fans of Star Wars and TFA" response (and not the more likely "children" response from @DigificWriter ) ... that description fits me perfectly. And I quite loved TLJ and thought it was a wonderful evolution of both Star Wars and the story told by TFA. So it most certainly didn't "dump" on my fandom. It more than well enhanced it. So ... the questionable statement is easily debunked,.
Finally saw the movie, so it's safe to come in here. Saw it on a matinee earlier today.
Random thoughts (I've only read 6 pages of this thread and none others yet, so cut me a break if I fuck up something. And I've only seen the movie once and am still processing it so could have mistakes.
This film for me was melancholy. It was three beloved characters aging and facing past failures, and yes, dying. Ugh. Like I don't need to look in a mirror to see that 40 years later we're old. But that part was a bit depressing.
Snokes. Got taken down that easily? Really? That was kind of surprising.
Ren. Before this movie, he was a whiny emo baby, hardly worthy of being Han and Leia's son. But he got some development this film and was much more sympathetic. I actually was starting to like him - or at least see why he was who he was. True grandson of Anakin, another fucked up guy.
Rey and the parents. I think Ren lied. Wasn't there a scene were people were holding her back as a ship left her planet? That being the case, her parents weren't therefore some poor schmos buried in a pauper's grave on Jakku. I think Ren told her this to make her turn to him after realizing that she was a nobody and only he could help her. If I'm right, perhaps we'll get some answers next movie. Ren HAD lied before - his account of Luke and the night Luke tried to kill him didn't quite square up with the truth.
Luke. I found him believable. He felt he had fucked up big time and just turned his back on it all. He redeemed himself at the end. I wonder how Ren didn't catch on to the fact that Luke wasn't really there. Once he tapped back into the Force (Luke), he really channeled that power, didn't he?
Leia in space. Really? That yanked me right out of the movie. I said to my husband, "no fucking way."
The casino scene could have been tossed out of the movie with no harm done.
I know this is anathema to true Wars fans, but without the "big three," it's not SW to me. I'll dutifully see the next one to get the story wrapped up, but that's it for me as far as SW is concerned.
I did like this movie though, but man, it was bleak. There may be a spark of hope, but it's a helluva tiny spark.
Ironic that the one of the big three still alive is the SW universe is deceased in the real world. Ain't that a bitch?
I give the movie a solid B or maybe a B+.
Random thoughts (I've only read 6 pages of this thread and none others yet, so cut me a break if I fuck up something. And I've only seen the movie once and am still processing it so could have mistakes.
This film for me was melancholy. It was three beloved characters aging and facing past failures, and yes, dying. Ugh. Like I don't need to look in a mirror to see that 40 years later we're old. But that part was a bit depressing.
Snokes. Got taken down that easily? Really? That was kind of surprising.
Ren. Before this movie, he was a whiny emo baby, hardly worthy of being Han and Leia's son. But he got some development this film and was much more sympathetic. I actually was starting to like him - or at least see why he was who he was. True grandson of Anakin, another fucked up guy.
Rey and the parents. I think Ren lied. Wasn't there a scene were people were holding her back as a ship left her planet? That being the case, her parents weren't therefore some poor schmos buried in a pauper's grave on Jakku. I think Ren told her this to make her turn to him after realizing that she was a nobody and only he could help her. If I'm right, perhaps we'll get some answers next movie. Ren HAD lied before - his account of Luke and the night Luke tried to kill him didn't quite square up with the truth.
Luke. I found him believable. He felt he had fucked up big time and just turned his back on it all. He redeemed himself at the end. I wonder how Ren didn't catch on to the fact that Luke wasn't really there. Once he tapped back into the Force (Luke), he really channeled that power, didn't he?
Leia in space. Really? That yanked me right out of the movie. I said to my husband, "no fucking way."
The casino scene could have been tossed out of the movie with no harm done.
I know this is anathema to true Wars fans, but without the "big three," it's not SW to me. I'll dutifully see the next one to get the story wrapped up, but that's it for me as far as SW is concerned.
I did like this movie though, but man, it was bleak. There may be a spark of hope, but it's a helluva tiny spark.
Ironic that the one of the big three still alive is the SW universe is deceased in the real world. Ain't that a bitch?
I give the movie a solid B or maybe a B+.
It was that fat shmoe that Simon Pegg played in TFA.
As @Tosk points out, that was Unkar Plutt. And really for me this is the single most compelling piece of evidence that Rey's parents were nobodies that neglected and abandoned her. I mean the guy is obviously a scum bag. Not the kind of person a caring parent would trust with their child's well being.
There's more to Jakku than just Niima Outpost and for all we know that ship is just a sublight junker they use to haul scrap from one side of the planet to another. Or it does have a hyperdrive, but for them, Jakku is just a frequent stop off point to trade and refuel, so that they at some point came back and died there isn't beyond the bounds of possibility. Indeed, they managed to get in enough debt once to necessitate selling their offspring (the implication being the ship was more valuable to them than Rey was) so it's likely they screwed up again at some point and it lost them their ship and/or their lives.
It's not impossible, but really I think the question was answered quite sufficiently in TFA and this little bit in TLJ is just to reemphasise for those that missed it the first time. That aside, I think it's a much more compelling narrative is that Kylo was being entirely honest the whole time. For all his faults, this is a guy that believes himself to be in the right and I think genuinely wants to persuade Rey to see things as he sees them. Lying to her would be pointless when the truth is so much more convincing.
As for his account of Luke's "attempted murder": again, he wasn't lying because that's what he saw from his point of view. He awoke suddenly to the sight of his uncle standing over his bed, weapon drawn and murder in his eyes. The whole thing was over in a second, but it was enough for Ben to feel mortally threatened and reflexively defend himself. After that, there really wasn't an opportunity for the two of them to exchange notes.
If there was any lie there on Kylo's part it would be one of omission. Specifically that he'd already decided to turn on Luke at that point (which is almost certainly what drew Luke into his room that night to begin with.) But again, from Kylo's perspective that's not a relevant piece of information since Luke's actions only reaffirmed his decision.
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Oh this makes sense now, Kylo didn’t see Luke’s lightsaber get destroyed on the supremacy, there was just a bright flash, he was knocked out, Rey took the saber with her so he never saw the destroyed saber.
So when fake Luke showed up with it on crait, he wouldn’t think that was wrong.
So when fake Luke showed up with it on crait, he wouldn’t think that was wrong.
Yup. And Rian Johnson emphasized that Luke's Force projection was designed to get as much of a reaction out of Kylo as possible.
And that's assuming they were actually on the ship at all. They could've lied to Rey to soften the blow, or even said nothing, and let her draw her own conclusions about why she couldn't stay with them. If there are always ships coming and going, "They're flying away on a spaceship" seems like the kind of conclusion a child could draw, and then hold on to for a lifetime. Remember, Marge Simpson knew her father was a pilot, even after she found out he wasn't. The lies we tell ourselves are most convincing.
And now let me just jot down "Rey Vision/Marge's Fear of Flying Mash-up" in my ideas folder...
My statement was hyperbolic, but essentially true in that he didn't make a movie for people wanting a continuation of TFA's story, or wanting to see a film that stayed true to the original films.
Yes, because the films that built up the Star Wars franchise in the first place don't have enough appeal or an audience large enough to carry on the franchise. Makes sense.
I don't have to. Plenty of people have made their opinions on this film known, and you can't dismiss all of them.
I'd expect a movie in the main SW series that has the return of Luke Skywalker and the continuation of TFA to do much better than a one off film with characters nobody has heard of before. And again, the issue isn't that TLJ won't be a massive success financially, but that it should have done much better. Companies have to think not only in terms of profit, but missed profits, or opportunity costs. If the film could have made hundreds of millions more by making different decisions, that is the same as if the movie lost money in the eyes of corporations.
Also, the film had a huge drop off that simply can't be explained by competition. We won't know for sure how audiences felt about this film until the next one comes out.
Why?
Sequels generally make less, not always of course and this is the 3rd SW movie in 3 years and the 8th in the Skywalker Saga. TFA made an insane amount of money and no sequel and probably no Star Wars movie again will crack $2 Billion. TLJ will make anywhere between $1.4-1.5 billion when all is said and done and that an insane amount of money.
Setting aside the fact that Rotten Tomatoes as a whole is garbage, that "audience score" has been confirmed (despite a denial from Rotten Tomatoes itself) to have been intentionally tampered with.
It did. It united themes from the PT, OT and in to the ST. It followed through with Rey's growth, Poe's limitations, and Finn finding his place.
Yeah, that's true to the original.
But I think this is a good thing in the long term. If the movies do badly, it'll force Disney/Lucasfilm to innovate and get out of the comfort zone of Empire v Rebels Mk 2.5.
Yeah that was expected.
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I was just about to post a big long response to T'Bonz post, but you said pretty much everything I was going to say, so I guess it's not necessary now.
It did all of those things for me. The problem with just relying on the people who saw the past parts of a series, is that those some of those people die, some of them move on to other things, and some of them can't continue to follow the series for one reason or another. As a series goes on there is going to be a slow loss of audience, and you need to continue to bring in new people to replace those people you lost.
This was part of the problem with Star Trek around the time of Nemesis, and Enterprise, it was pretty much just down to the fans and it wasn't binging in new people to replace those fans as they stopped following the franchise for whatever reasons.
The only reason TFA did the massive numbers it did is because it was the first new Star Wars movie in over a decade, the first movie to continue the Original Trilogy story in almost 30 years, and the first movie from Disney. The novelty has warn off, so it's not going to have as much of a draw as it did before.
I think the reaction online is a pretty clear indicator of how people felt.
Oh, but TLJ is a continuation of TFA's story and it's true to the original films, so you're not speaking for people who wanted those things either. TLJ has its problems, but, when it came to Luke's story, it was quite true to the OT.
This appears to be an instance of a segment of fandom not liking the direction that the franchise is going, but they can't wrap their heads around the fact that not enough fans agree with their position for them to be representative of the majority. They're just coming across as a spiteful and obnoxious vocal minority. Haters gonna hate, and all.
So: people who built up the Star Wars franchise "in the first place." You mean people like me who saw the OT first run and helped form the long lines at theaters that made the national news? Those people? Yeah, we only continue to age. I'm over 50, and, sadly, I'm not getting any younger. Disney has other interests besides making episodes down the line exclusively for an audience of Force ghosts. Expect things to change from your specific preferences.
Of course I can. This really doesn't work the way you think it does.
Well, you'd know better than the people running the site I guess.
So it makes sense that the man who risked his life and everything to turn an arch-villain like Vader to the light would try to kill his sister's son on the mere feeling that he was turning to the dark?
What story from TFA was continued? Rey needing training - didn't happen, and she ultimately didn't need any. Rey's parents - she doesn't find out who they are. Snoke - just some guy, and was killed off.
If you have a poll of how all Star Wars fans feel about the movie, I'd love to see it. Seems to me that the people who despise this film are far less bitter and spiteful than the people who loved it and can't handle that others have legitimate, well thought-out reasons to not like it. I've read more than enough comments trying to dismiss the views of people who didn't are for this film as "fanboys", "sexist", "Nazis", ect. That's not how you convince people you have legitimate views.
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So: people who built up the Star Wars franchise "in the first place." You mean people like me who saw the OT first run and helped form the long lines at theaters that made the national news? Those people? Yeah, we only continue to age. I'm over 50, and, sadly, I'm not getting any younger. Disney has other interests besides making episodes down the line exclusively for an audience of Force ghosts. Expect things to change from your specific preferences.
Of course I can. This really doesn't work the way you think it does.[/QUOTE] So you are saying that if they made a film that stayed consistent to the lore of the universe, didn't needlessly drop story lines from the previous film, and had the same spirit that pleased people old and young 40 years ago that it would somehow only appeal to old people? Do you think kids today are only into cynical films that don't adhere to a basic level of narrative coherence?
Again, I'm not saying SW can't go in a new direction or introduce new elements. That would be wonderful! This film did none of those things. It blatantly ripped off whole sections of Empire and Jedi while adamantly refusing to follow up on the previous film and shows a lack of any understanding of these characters - even the new ones, was tonally inconsistent, had conflicting messages, because bad storytelling is apparently all the hip, modern rage these days. This film set a SW record in the number of people who kill themselves to save others while being the only one to throw in a "self-sacrifice is for dummies" message at the end.
This guy does a great job outlying the flaws of this film as being more than "preferences" in a logical and well-thought out manner.
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The people who intentionally tampered with TLJ's audience score publicly admitted to doing so. Rotten Tomatoes can dispute it all they want, but, to quote Fox Mulder, "the truth is out there" .
Just because they "admitted" it doesn't mean it really happened as they claim.
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