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Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion

Grade the movie.


  • Total voters
    290
The people who intentionally tampered with TLJ's audience score publicly admitted to doing so. Rotten Tomatoes can dispute it all they want, but, to quote Fox Mulder, "the truth is out there" .

In spite of their denials, RT’s audience tomatometer has been blatantly fucked with before.

Kirk Cameron purposefully organised a campaign to increase Saving Christmas’s audience score. Saving Christmas being the sort of movie that didn’t usually merit enough votes to have an audience score, only an astoundingly bad critical one.

And it worked. Briefly. The audience score was in the 90’s.

But the internet found out about it. And some rather annoyed folks counter brigaded in return. The same movie now sits at 30% and an average score of 1.9/5.

It’s kinda hard to put too much stock in RT’s claims about its preventative measures, when they still show Saving Christmas as being watched by 22000 people and made no adjustments even when all the fuckery was reported on.

RT may indeed have some preventative algorithms in place, but they clearly aren’t that effective. I mean, they can be fooled by nothing more than Kirk fucking Cameron and his Facebook page.

Just because they "admitted" it doesn't mean it really happened as they claim.

Of course, all RT’s incompetence being said, I still have trouble believing that some of those dumbasses are capable of botting like they claim.

More than likely, they’re just doing what Cameron did. Roughly organising themselves on social media, having too much free time and energy, and banking on most people not bothering to vote on RT.

I mean, does anyone here vote on RT? Personally, I have a Letterboxd account for that. Even then, I don’t think I’ve logged Star Wars yet. No doubt I’ll remember to do it by the next Star Wars movie.:)
 
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Saw it today. I enjoy the Star Wars movies (well, not the prequels) but am not a huge fan. Just a casual one.

I enjoyed it. I think The Force Awakens was the better movie (ignoring that it's a rehash of ANH) but only because this story needed more room to grow than a single movie has available.

Luke was badass. And right. I get that people don't like what they did with him but it makes total sense to me. The only thing I didn't like was his changing his mind at the end and saying the Jedi should live on. He was right the first time. Their knowledge and skills, sure, but the dogma itself - it was always... problematic.

As was stated over and over in the movie: The force doesn't belong to the Jedi, or the Sith. Let the past die. Let a new interpretation of it grow from Rey (and Ben?). A new order. Not one bound by Jedi tenates. Not one consumed with Sith ambition and hatred. One that has learned from the Jedi and Siths mistakes.

That would have been more in keeping with the themes of the film imo.

Was anyone else expecting Luke to have caught all those blaster bolts Neo-style at the end, like how Kylo was introduced to us by catching one?

I think my biggest problem with TLJ was the format. This shouldn't have been a movie. This should have been a three part miniseries, not one film. Really let the tension of the escape grow. Let the training of Rey breathe. Get more into Luke's rejection of the force. This story seemed better suited for 6 hours on HBO than 2.75 hours in theaters.

There was one big plot hole that I couldn't get over though.

If this movie starts off right when the previous ended, when the hell did the New Republic fall?! In TFA the New Republic wasn't even at war with the First Order. They seemed like two seperate entities - the Resistance existing because the Republic refused to start a new war with The First Order.

Now suddenly the Republic is gone, integrated in the first order, and the Resistance is a rebellion of 400 people? Down to, like, 20 at the end?

Also, when did Finn learn to fly?
 
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Saw it today. I enjoy the Star Wars movies (well, not the prequels) but am not a huge fan. Just a casual one.

If this movie starts off right when the previous ended, when the hell did the New Republic fall?! In TFA the New Republic wasn't even at war with the First Order. They seemed like two seperate entities - the Resistance existing because the Republic refused to start a new war with The First Order.

Now suddenly the Republic is gone, integrated in the first order, and the Resistance is a rebellion of 400 people? Down to, like, 20 at the end?

The New Republic fell in the last movie. When Starkiller Base blew the crap out of the Hosnian system, it essentially decapitated the Republic.
 
Luke was badass. And right. I get that people don't like what they did with him but it makes total sense to me. The only thing I didn't like was his changing his mind at the end and saying the Jedi should live on. He was right the first time. Their knowledge and skills, sure, but the dogma itself - it was always... problematic.
Unless I misunderstood, I think that's pretty much what Yoda says to Luke. "Time it is...for you to look past a pile of old books!"
The implication being that the Jedi are more than just a collection of rituals, dogma and rules. That's just what they became in the end and that this should be a new beginning (also alluded to before with the cycles of death, decay and new life being part of the balance of the force.) See also Yoda's speech about passing on the wisdom gained from failure. He's not just talking about Luke's personal failings, but the failures of the Jedi of old too. One assumes when Luke later says he won't be the last Jedi, he's taken these words to heart.
 
I would think the old Jedi texts are not about what the rules are for the Jedi Order, but more about what the Force is, what powers can and had been found, and the nature of the Light side, the Dark Side, and the Balance in the Force.
 
TremblingBluStar said:
So it makes sense that the man who risked his life and everything to turn an arch-villain like Vader to the light would try to kill his sister's son on the mere feeling that he was turning to the dark?

He didn't try to kill anyone.

The only thing I didn't like was his changing his mind at the end and saying the Jedi should live on. He was right the first time.

No, he was wrong the first time. Disney understands this, that's why they had Max von Sydow voice pro-Jedi sentiment in the previous film. The crime of the Jedi was that they got beaten by their adversary. They lost. Wanting them gone as a result is just textbook blame-the-victim mentality.

Also, when did Finn learn to fly?

He was probably trained by Leia.
 
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^^ When? There's no time jump in between the films and Finn was injured during what time between there was. That's a good catch... I mean, I guess it's conceivable that he has some basic piloting skills but was never trained to fly the TIE fighters so that's why he needed Poe to do it... He didn't know how to fly the sand skipper (skiffer?) very well and Rose even had to tell him to drop his stabilizer thingy.
 
I would think the old Jedi texts are not about what the rules are for the Jedi Order, but more about what the Force is, what powers can and had been found, and the nature of the Light side, the Dark Side, and the Balance in the Force.
By the looks of it, they're a hodge-podge of various texts he's managed to salvage from all over the galaxy, not a coherent or even complete series of volumes.
So yeah, some of it may be meditations on the nature of the force, some may be padawan training manuals dating from before the Sith schism, one may be a history of the Order's founding and others may include various versions of the Jedi code from throughout history.

Either way, to Luke the books are symbolic of the Jedi Order's history, which despite all of his protestations he is not willing to give up on. Yoda just points out he was holding onto the wrong things. The books are not the Jedi. The Jedi are an ideal, a way of thinking of and interacting with the force. That exists with or without a bunch of dusty old tomes.
 
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Well, you'd know better than the people running the site I guess.

So it makes sense that the man who risked his life and everything to turn an arch-villain like Vader to the light would try to kill his sister's son on the mere feeling that he was turning to the dark?
Everybody keeps going over and over, and over, and fucking over, and fucking over, and FUCK! They're not the same situation, so yes, it makes sense.
What story from TFA was continued? Rey needing training - didn't happen, and she ultimately didn't need any. Rey's parents - she doesn't find out who they are. Snoke - just some guy, and was killed off.
She did get some training, but things moved on pretty quickly. Snoke was not a plot point, he didn't even do anything in TFA, and there was no real set up for any kind of plot with him. Everybody just assumed that since we didn't learn much about him in TFA he was being set up as some big mystery to be explored late, but after TLJ it's pretty clear that the reason we didn't learn anything about him, is because he wasn't important to the story,.
If you have a poll of how all Star Wars fans feel about the movie, I'd love to see it. Seems to me that the people who despise this film are far less bitter and spiteful than the people who loved it and can't handle that others have legitimate, well thought-out reasons to not like it. I've read more than enough comments trying to dismiss the views of people who didn't are for this film as "fanboys", "sexist", "Nazis", ect. That's not how you convince people you have legitimate views.
You know, there is a poll at the top of this thread. And there are also viewer scores on sites like Metacritic, and IMDB.
In our results, 74.5% of people gave it a B- or higher, while only 10.1% gave it a D- or lower. At Metacritic it has a 4.2, with 2,318 positive, 842 mixed, and 2,975 negative votes. It has a 7.5 with 287,896 votes on IMDB.
So: people who built up the Star Wars franchise "in the first place." You mean people like me who saw the OT first run and helped form the long lines at theaters that made the national news? Those people? Yeah, we only continue to age. I'm over 50, and, sadly, I'm not getting any younger. Disney has other interests besides making episodes down the line exclusively for an audience of Force ghosts. Expect things to change from your specific preferences.

Of course I can. This really doesn't work the way you think it does.So you are saying that if they made a film that stayed consistent to the lore of the universe, didn't needlessly drop story lines from the previous film, and had the same spirit that pleased people old and young 40 years ago that it would somehow only appeal to old people? Do you think kids today are only into cynical films that don't adhere to a basic level of narrative coherence?
The movie didn't do any of the things you are talking about there, and I think there is plenty of proof that kids today are into more than just cynical films. The issue is just that the SW really has been doing the same kinds of stories for 40 years now, and it's simply time for them to do something different.
Again, I'm not saying SW can't go in a new direction or introduce new elements. That would be wonderful! This film did none of those things.
Except that is exactly what the movie did, and now people who can't accept change are having it fit because it wasn't exactly like the old movies.
It blatantly ripped off whole sections of Empire and Jedi while adamantly refusing to follow up on the previous film and shows a lack of any understanding of these characters - even the new ones, was tonally inconsistent, had conflicting messages, because bad storytelling is apparently all the hip, modern rage these days.
It actually did a lot less ripping off of the movies than TFA did, and just because you might not have been happy with where it took the characters doesn't mean the people responsible for it didn't understand them.[/QUOTE]
 
Except that is exactly what the movie did, and now people who can't accept change are having it fit because it wasn't exactly like the old movies.
Exactly. Abrams "ruined Star Wars" because he didn't change enough. Johnson "ruined Star Wars" because he changed to much, ruined Luke Skywalker because he didn't understand the character and is generally a horrible person. Probably kicks puppies, doesn't recycle, and runs diesel engines constantly, the monster!
:rolleyes:
 
Finn and Poe seem like two guys who never had a true, human male friend until they met each other. As for Rose, there's just noting there. Its as one-sided as Bucky trying to flirt with Peggy Carter in Captain America: The First Avenger: whatever was projected had nowhere to go because the object of desire simply did not--and would not see the hopeful person that way.

In the case of Rey and Finn, they naturally behaved around each other in a way that was inching toward a feeling deeper than basic friendship. Even as TLJ placed Rose in the film to stop this from happening, certain bits of dialogue survived--specifically, Rey's request of Chewbacca to give her message to Finn, which the Wookie understood before she finished it. Clearly, Rey already accepts the idea that Finn is her friend, and this scene happens as Rey is about to deliver herself to Ren/Snoke (possibly a suicide mission), so even without on-screen subtitles, one can sense that Rey (based on her connection to Finn in TFA) is laying out all of her feelings about him. Add the look of rejection on her face as Finn tends to Rose, and that does not read as Rey thinking she's only lost a friend.


You might as well forget it. Many fans would rather ship Rey with the murderous man child Kylo Ren or no one rather than ship her with Finn. And many people would rather ship Finn with Poe, Rose or no one; rather than ship him with Rey.

Too many people are too bigoted to accept a biracial romance in which one half of the pair is white, in a STAR WARS movie.
 
Yeah, I think Rey's arc for the last movie is going to be busy enough without having to cram a romance in there too. And no, the thing with Kylo wasn't a romance. An attempted seduction perhaps, but not *that* kind.

Personally I really appreciated that neither TFA nor TLJ attempted to make Finn & Rey's relationship anything more than platonic, when a lesser writer might have very easily gone the other way.

Luke says the temple was specifically built to house those books.
Not the temple, just that one shelf. And that doesn't necessarily mean they were all still there when he showed up. I mean come on; 1000 generations sat in a dead tree, exposed to the elements? They'd probably have crumbled to dust long ago.

ETA: Yup, it seems they were indeed assembled by Luke, not just found sitting there.

Too many people are too bigoted to accept a biracial romance in which one half of the pair is white, in a STAR WARS movie.
And who exactly cares what those people might think?
 
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You might as well forget it. Many fans would rather ship Rey with the murderous man child Kylo Ren or no one rather than ship her with Finn. And many people would rather ship Finn with Poe, Rose or no one; rather than ship him with Rey.

Too many people are too bigoted to accept a biracial romance in which one half of the pair is white, in a STAR WARS movie.

"Many fans"? Out of curiosity, how did you compile this data, what qualifiers or conclusions were used? How about person of color with person of different color as opposed to just white/nonwhite? Hollywood, for decades, has acted as if only black and white exist and with no other shades getting mention. With one or two rather rare exceptions...

When you say "ship", why not just say you're referring to people having (not always) paid-bonded sexual relationships with as if they're just objects to be shipped?? Or why characters must be about sexual relationships to begin with? T'Bonz pointed that one out too... or were you assuming the possibility but not saying it because, like you, we're all human and don't always include every possible point and then make assumptions, usually by accident?

Pavlov might be getting upset, as it's nice to know other people exist who watch shows for reasons other than "Oooh, who's shaggin' who", "a woman can't be independent", and other oversimplified spoonfed tripe... (Pavlov would be happy with me at times too, no worries.)

But your post reminded me that I was one person who had brought up "Ren and Rey sitting in a tree", albeit some time ago, and certainly for reasons (other than skin color) that I assumed were fairly straightforward and simple. Perhaps not? The following response is based on an assumption so please forgive me if I am in error in my perception regarding the response:

I was discussing plot twists, since TLJ was clearly subverting audience expectations for any number of issues and it is certainly much less often done where the bad guys winning the good guys over so it'd be a lot more interesting than replaying the same song 50 times in a row, since - in case people don't remember - everybody was rightfully griping about TFA being an obvious retread/remake played out "safe" as to not "scare away" audiences with scary unknown possibilities... Do you want to see the same thing over and over or do you want to see something unexpected? Having Rey go to the Dark Side would be as "not the same thing" as it possible gets. It's a much expanded saga now where no expectation is left, or I hope. Who knows if IX will be another by-the-numbers play-it-safe retread...

Maybe other people were chiming in and saying they wanted Rey and Ren to get together because they were white, and I've not sifted through every post between my earlier post and now, nor do I have the time and if they want everything to be white, why does that hurt you so badly and - more to a point - how is that our problem to fix? We don't even tell other parents' kids to behave in public... well, I don't and most people don't, so that assumption is why I'm suggesting you're the same as most people under 80.

If people really believe "Ren + Rey" must obviously have only one reason to get them together, not of plot interest but because of skin color-- if everything is just a matter of skin color to some people, doesn't that seem just a tad shallow?

And who needs skin color to be able to relate to a character? Aren't actions and motivations more interesting? I don't know, I'm only asking. But if skin color is the only thing that compels people to watch...

We're all part of the human race. Well, human species for which races exist under the category "species"... So here's a fun parallel: If cats don't care that the other cat they're looking at has gray fur instead of orange, then something else is going on. One can have a gray tabby cat look at two orange calico cats, and it ends up befriending one orange cat and not necessarily the other. Does that make the gray cat racist? Or the orange one that befriends the gray one - as in "self-internalizing" that psychologists often have a field day with? (And do people read into things too much? I might have since the people you were referring to may have openly said they wanted both to be white a few pages and posts ago and you may not have been referring to me clandestinely. But I was not one of those people, but read into your post too much and making an assumption that you were summarily including me. Which you may not have at the time. If that is the case then I was clearly in error to make an assumption and apologize for taking something so personally when it wasn't an issue to begin with.)

Another issue and I like this one: Have you done DNA tests on the characters (not actors, there are obvious differences) to see if they're 20% this or 10% that or even 2% something else? Does it even matter? And should it even matter? Isn't that the point?

Let's see the numbers, ditto for LCD audiences since they bring in the most moolah and that's what Hollywood wants. And even then, it's still simple: Statistical data only show a snapshot in one point of time, it can't explain the underlying why's and how's and other reasoning that led to the numbers and what they purportedly suggest. Anyone can get a computer to process numbers. Computers cannot think. Neither can dogs. Humans can look at the same numbers and fathom a different result to computers and both human and machine can still be equally wrong. Of course, computers were invented by humans - imperfection cannot create perfection and not for philosophically paradoxical reasons.
 
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