Spoilers WRATH OF KHAN v. INTO DARKNESS deaths

[Galileo7]

For myself, Wrath Of Khan would have been a perfect Star Trek film, 10 out of 10 , if and only if, Spock had been saved before the end of the film as was Kirk in ST Into Darkness.

Spocks "death" in WOK makes this film at best a 9 out of 10. The final scene on Vulcan in the Search For Spock is the only way to make it complete. The end of WOK with Spock "dead" in the torpedo case on Genesis left myself disappointed even with the 1984 existence of SFS. Of course, if that had happened SFS film would not have been needed, just that final scene somehow written to fit the end of WOK.

If ST Into Darkness had replicated Kirk's "death" to be like Spock's "death" in WOK, then this Summer's Star Trek film would not be STBeyond. It would instead be ST:Search For Kirk. I know the situation regarding the making of WOK and Leonard Nimoy. I just think Wrath Of Khan would have been the perfect ST film with Spock alive somehow at the end. I am not saying necessarily the Khan blood method from STID or even what happened in the last scene on Vulcan of Search For Spock.

 

[Kor]

I am of the opposite opinion. I have always been fine with that aspect of TWOK. In fact, I think that would have made a fine ending to the Trek movie franchise, and that TSFS and the rest were unnecessary.

After all, "How we face death is at least as important as how we face life."

Kor

 

[Avro Arrow]

I tend to agree more with Kor, although I wouldn't have wanted the movie series to end with TWOK. I actually think TSFS's resurrection of Spock actually (probably unfairly) negatively impacts my feelings towards TWOK, although it is still my favourite of the series.

If they had actually resurrected Spock within the same movie, then his death would have come across as completely cheap and gimmicky... just like Kirk's did in ID.

 

[Kor]

I think Saavik would have made a good successor to Spock if they had made another movie or two but decided not to resurrect him.

Kor

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I would have absolutely no interest in any version of TWOK that resurrected Spock five minutes after killing him off the way STID did with Kirk. At that point, it's pretty pointless and you're just needlessly toying with your viewers' emotions.

Some people forget that when they killed off Spock in TWOK, they meant it. That's not something that either Nemesis or STID can honestly say.

 

[doylem1]

Spock's death in WOK and leaving him dead at the end of the movie was fine. It gave it significance and you saw the effect it had on the crew and into the next movie as well
Kirk's death and resurrection with magic blood 5 mins after he died felt so cheap and what was the point ?

 

[Galileo7]

....
Some people forget that when they killed off Spock in TWOK, they meant it....

True, for myself, maybe if Spock stood dead and there never was a entire next film Search For Spock to bring him back alive intact, then I would not feel that way about WOK.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Some people forget that when they killed off Spock in TWOK, they meant it. That's not something that either Nemesis or STID can honestly say.

Maybe for Nicholas Meyer, but not according to the producers of the film. They went out and shot a conclusion without Meyer, and placed Spock on a planet that can recreate his anatomical matrix-- clearly stating to many, they did not mean it.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Maybe for Nicholas Meyer, but not according to the producers of the film. They went out and shot a conclusion without Meyer, and placed Spock on a planet that can recreate his anatomical matrix-- clearly stating to many, they did not mean it.

Yes, I know. But those were very last-minute additions to an already-finished film. When the movie was written and shot, Nimoy and everyone else involved believed that they were killing off Spock for real. It was only after an early test screening that Harve Bennett had second thoughts. And those shots were added over Nicholas Meyer's protests and without his participation (That's not Leonard Nimoy's hand in the "Remember" close-up of McCoy, either).

The thing about Genesis regenerating Spock wan't added until TSFS. That was a happy coincidence more than anything.

So no, I don't think that changing your mind after the fact counts as "not meaning it."

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Spock's death made TWOK poignant and very personal to Kirk. It would've been interesting from the franchise had he remained dead with Saavik taking up the reigns as Science Officer.

The end of STID makes death cheap, now if can be cured with a simple hypospray. Besides when NuKirk "died" it was very obvious it wouldn't last, whilst Spock might've remained dead as Leonard Nimoy wasn't all that keen on continuing in the role.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Yes, I know. But those were very last-minute additions to an already-finished film. When the movie was written and shot, Nimoy and everyone else involved believed that they were killing off Spock for real. It was only after an early test screening that Harve Bennett had second thoughts. And those shots were added over Nicholas Meyer's protests and without his participation (That's not Leonard Nimoy's hand in the "Remember" close-up of McCoy, either).

The thing about Genesis regenerating Spock wan't added until TSFS. That was a happy coincidence more than anything.

So no, I don't think that changing your mind after the fact counts as "not meaning it."

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[JonnyQuest037]

What's confusing you?

 

[STEPhon IT]

What's confusing you?

You basically reworded what I've written and then sh*t out your conclusion.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

You basically reworded what I've written and then sh*t out your conclusion.

Elegantly phrased.

The facts aren't in dispute here. But yes, we drew different conclusions. I concluded that the filmmakers changed their minds about Spock's death being permanent because Harve Bennett said as much.

 

[BillJ]

I read somewhere that Nimoy forced their hand. At the wrap party, he said he couldn't wait to do Star Trek III and that sent everyone scurrying trying to figure out how to include him.

But who knows how accurate that was?

 

[Marsden]

I remember an interview that Leonard Nimoy wanted to be done being Spock, the part wasn't feeling good to do for him, but then he thought the death scene was so good and enjoyed the part again that he didn't want to quit anymore. So he was serious about quitting, and then changed his mind, but after it was done, so while doing it, I doubt there was any intention to undo it.

 

[Tosk]

I'd probably be more on board with nuKirk's revival if it wasn't set up in advance so damn hard. That scene between Kirk and Khan where Kirk just suddenly asks what Bones is doing with a dead tribble is painful.

 

[Shat Happens]

That's not Leonard Nimoy's hand in the "Remember" close-up of McCoy

It isn't?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Nope. The "Remember" thing was added after an early test screening, so the close-up of the hand on DeForest Kelley's face was done with a double or stand-in. Nimoy talked about it in Shatner's Star Trek Movie Memories book, as I recall. He was a bit upset because Nimoy was always very precise with his hand movements as Spock, and he felt like the guy they had in the "Remember" scene just kind of limply flopped his hand onto Kelley's face.

 

[Kor]

It's still Nimoy's voice saying "Remember," isn't it?

Kor