Where was the probe in The Voyage Home from?

[KelisThePoet]

I'm sure this has been discussed many times before, but I've never been a party to it.

Where was the probe in The Voyage Home from? Might it have come from some place Starfleet will stumble across in the conceivable future, or did it hale from outside the galaxy, like some of the original Star Trek's other mysterious things?

Was it built by a cetaceanoid species? And how were its makers communicating with humpback whales in the past (if in fact, Spock's hypothesis is correct, that they were in some sort of regular communication before the species went extinct)? Did they periodically send probes that delivered messages to the humpback whales successfully, then turned around, unbeknownst to the more primitive humans of earlier centuries or millennia? Was their something like subspace or long-range telepathic communication going on between Earth and the planet of the probe's makers.

And were the probe's makers truly communicating with the humpback whales? Is the implication that humpbacks are a sapient species that predates humans, unknown to us? Or are they just a promising pre-sapient species that can give a basic response when prompted by something like the probe? Perhaps the probe's makers are advanced cetaceanoids (without an equivalent to the Prime Directive) who feel a sense of kinship with these primitive cousins on Earth, the marine-biological equivalent of the relationship between the living machines and V'Ger?

 

[FormerLurker]

All we know for certain is it came from space.

 

[Paradise City]

Well, I dunno. I suspect it is sent from a cetacean species that speaks a cetacean way and sees only cetacean lifeforms and is unaware of any other lifeform. It's possibly programmed and was satisfied that George and Grace were simply present or maybe G&G told the probe everything is cool and happy as a clam, the probe wandered back home.

 

[DonIago]

One of the novels hypothesized that the Probe was dispatched by a civilization that had since been destroyed by the Borg.

 

[wayoung]

There's a book called "Probe" that follows it. I was given it as a kid, don't remember much from it.

 

[DonIago]

^That's the one I had in mind.

 

[Spot261]

Hard to see a civilisation that could build the whale probe being troubled by the Borg....

 

[Timo]

That the Probe would be unaware of other life sounds weird. That it would be uninterested in other life, less so...

But if zero whales = bad and two whales = good, that's equally weird, and might indicate the Probe is either a simpleton, or then badly broken...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

There's a book called "Probe" that follows it. I was given it as a kid, don't remember much from it.

The original version of the novel, pre-heavy rewriting by another author, is available free online as Music of the Spheres. Info HERE

 

[Spot261]

That the Probe would be unaware of other life sounds weird. That it would be uninterested in other life, less so...

But if zero whales = bad and two whales = good, that's equally weird, and might indicate the Probe is either a simpleton, or then badly broken...

Timo Saloniemi

Makes a great deal of sense, furthering the parallels between the Probe, V'ger and Nomad, something that was either faulty or failing to understand how its perception was way out from that of others, even that said others could in fact have perceptions at all.

 

[DonIago]

I'm pretty sure the published version of Probe mentions that the probe was also damaged during an attack by the Borg. I don't think that's used to explain why it considers only two members of a species acceptable, but I guess it's possible.

Then again, it's just as possible the probe was programmed solely to check-in with the whales and report back, not make its own judgment calls. And if whomever sent it doesn't follow-up...well, IIRC, in the novel that's one reason why it returns to its creators' planet.

 

[Timo]

Heck, might be the Probe was on a mission to find whalesong-like signals, not to check up on actual whales - and thought it heard something on Earth, went in to check, found nothing, dug deeper, and then realized it had been listening to nothing but local fauna. At that point, it turned away in disgust, continuing its search for the actually interesting stuff that sounds like whales but isn't 'em.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[KelisThePoet]

Makes a great deal of sense, furthering the parallels between the Probe, V'ger and Nomad, something that was either faulty or failing to understand how its perception was way out from that of others, even that said others could in fact have perceptions at all.

V'ger wasn't unaware of the existence of carbon units. It just didn't consider them significant. Similarly, the probe might consider non-cetaceans insignificant, or perhaps non-marine life insignificant.

But if zero whales = bad and two whales = good, that's equally weird, and might indicate the Probe is either a simpleton, or then badly broken...

Yeah, it's also weird that a scientist like Spock considers two whales to be a solution. Surely he knows the gene pool is too small to repopulate the species, among other complications.

 

[Timo]

Spock doesn't need a species. He needs native Whale speakers, and only for a brief while. After that, they can be used as variety on the SF Headquarters menu for all Spock cares.

Whether Spock is right in his criteria, we don't know. And we might not need to care. If the Probe only calls in so rarely that the last time it did that, Earthlings were unable to observe it, then there's no need for a species of whales: the next time the Probe comes, humans can either replicate a whale complete with language skills, or change the Probe into a whale and two tupils at the push of a button.

But Spock might have been quite mistaken about the need for a native Whale speaker. The Probe might very well have accepted gibberish as an answer - after all, for all we and the heroes know, whalesong is nothing but gibberish, and no actual "communication" of any complex sort was intended to take place, and did not.

After all, the heroes have the Universal Translator. If it can't make heads or tails of whalesong, then there's unlikely to be any intelligent content there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

Given the state of medical science in the 23rd century, perhaps two whales is enough to repopulate the species via cloning and genetic manipulation. #NotaBiologist

 

[KelisThePoet]

Spock doesn't need a species. He needs native Whale speakers, and only for a brief while. After that, they can be used as variety on the SF Headquarters menu for all Spock cares.

But as you noted in your previous post, it's weird that the probe is okay with just two whales; and if that's weird, then why would Spock guess the probe would act that way? If the probe shouldn't be satisfied with two whales, Spock shouldn't assume that it will be.

Regardless of Spock's particular motives and hypotheses, I do wonder what the people of Earth did with the whales. Given what we know about 23rd-century society and values, I imagine they'd be interested in repopulating a lost species and see the value in doing so, apart from any fears that the probe or its makers might return. But can it be done with two whales, even with the fictional, advanced technology of the 23rd century? I imagine cloning could be an option, but one that doesn't solve the gene pool problem. In the movie itself, Kirk and Spock seem to put their faith in an unrealistic "Noah's Ark" approach, or else why is Kirk so keen on getting a pair of whales with a baby?

 

[Timo]

But as you noted in your previous post, it's weird that the probe is okay with just two whales; and if that's weird, then why would Spock guess the probe would act that way? If the probe shouldn't be satisfied with two whales, Spock shouldn't assume that it will be.

I don't see the logical problem. Spock might feel a whole species might be better, but he can't get that. He can get two whales. If those suffice, then there's no downside from them being unable to repopulate the planet, because their usefulness has come to an end anyway. If those don't suffice, there's again no downside, as there will be no planet left to repopulate.

And that's not necessarily as cold as it sounds. If Spock guessed wrong and Earth died, he could hopefully do it all over again with his time machine, until getting it right.

In the movie itself, Kirk and Spock seem to put their faith in an unrealistic "Noah's Ark" approach, or else why is Kirk so keen on getting a pair of whales with a baby?

The baby appears to be mere bonus - Kirk was going to steal the adult whales even before hearing the news...

Would cloning solve the problem of repopulation? Sure, in the sense that whenever a genetic shortcoming wipes out the entire species, more of the same can be cloned at will. And either the external reason for their demise (say, a nasty fungus in the seas) is eliminated first, or then not - the seas would stay populated with the species through cloning even if every individual died horribly soon after being dropped into them.

If the idea is to reintroduce a viable species, then that can be done without genetic wizardy, in stages: Starfleet could send crews to steal further whales, perhaps from right in front of the noses of whalers who would otherwise have killed the beasts there and then (so nothing changes but the attractiveness of whaling as a profession), and deliver them to the seas next to George and Gracie and their kid(s).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

Hm...

Starfleet sends multiple missions into the past to retrieve whales that are about to be killed in any case.

In the past, whaling becomes less attractive as a profession.

Our Heroes return to a timeline in which Earth has been taken over by the overly-abundant whales.

I approve!

 

[Vger23]

It was either from Kling or Romii. Take your pick.

 

[KelisThePoet]

I don't see the logical problem. Spock might feel a whole species might be better, but he can't get that. He can get two whales. If those suffice, then there's no downside from them being unable to repopulate the planet, because their usefulness has come to an end anyway. If those don't suffice, there's again no downside, as there will be no planet left to repopulate.

That makes practical sense. The ship can't exactly transport thousands or even hundreds or even fifties of whales, so bringing two back is their only shot. But it's rather a long shot, and the characters (except perhaps McCoy) don't seem to acknowledge how long a shot it is.

If the idea is to reintroduce a viable species, then that can be done without genetic wizardy, in stages: Starfleet could send crews to steal further whales, perhaps from right in front of the noses of whalers who would otherwise have killed the beasts there and then (so nothing changes but the attractiveness of whaling as a profession), and deliver them to the seas next to George and Gracie and their kid(s).

I think the goal has to be reintroducing a viable species. For all their enlightened commitment to ecodiversity, twenty-third century humans aren't going to expend endless time and resources on the Sisyphusian task of re-cloning generation after generation of nonviable humpback whales.

With regard to using more time travel to accomplish the goal, I actually think this movie does a fairly good job of limiting time travel as a panacea for this and other problems (in contrast to so many of the Generation-era time travel stories). Travelling through time is presented as difficult and risky. The characters are unsure if they can make break-away speeds on both trips. We see the ship almost falling apart and getting stranded in the wrong time. And on both trips, but especially the return trip, there's doubt about whether the ship will arrive in the targeted time period. This is the part of the effort that everyone does acknowledge to be a long shot.