What was the point of the baby in Collective?

[eepruls]

I watched Collective again the other night on Space and still don't understand the point of having the baby in the episode. We all know that she was forgotten and never spoken of again. I chalked it up to shitty writing. But what I hadn't really noticed is that she was actually forgotten within the episode itself!

Other than the scene where she had to be helped in Voyager's sickbay (and where Janeway held her), she wasn't mentioned again. Even near the end of the episode, Janeway says that they now have FOUR children that need to be cared for but makes no mention of the baby, which would probably need the most care of all. And right at the very end, the older children learn their names and where they came from in the cargo bay before regenerating. They don't ask what will become of the baby nor does Seven say anything about her. Then the ship flies off.

Within the episode itself, did the writers not think the audience would be wondering what the hell happened to the baby when they explicitly talk about now having the four older children? It seems the baby was just thrown in so they could get the older children to trust the Voyager crew. If they had no intention to keep the baby until at least the end of the episode for goodness sake, why not make one of those twin boys that never got any lines, sick?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Braga at conventions says that the baby was returned to his parents at some point... but if what you say is true, then that handover must have happened during the meaty events of Collective.

 

[T.D. Possum]

I think the idea was to have a freaky visual. Seeing a baby in a Borg incubator thingy is a bigger emotional shock than seeing older children in Borg-ified situations. Also, seeing Janeway holding the baby as she ponders the impact of her decision is a strong image.

But, really, it was quite careless of the writers not to remember to include the baby in the resolution of the story.

 

[Praxius]

True.... But the thing I noticed though was the Doc's sneaky attempt to use the baby to sway Janeway's decision of using the biological weapon..... and they used the baby to sway Seven's view of the borg children in that when she was holding it, she started to feel a bit of responsibility for what happens to them. (Just watched this last night actually)

 

[Ensign Johnson]

The baby was creepy, it looked like it was made of jelly. I could have sworn I saw that baby die in that episode, I guess my brain just made that up to explain where it had gone.

 

[eepruls]

Braga at conventions says that the baby was returned to his parents at some point... but if what you say is true, then that handover must have happened during the meaty events of Collective.

That is a cheap way of addressing the issue and sounds like he just made it up. I'm fine with the baby being returned to her parents but it should be mentioned since she was integral to the plot. Plus, finding a tiny baby's parents somewhere in space before the next episode? And it's not mentioned? And it couldn't have happened during Collective since they never left the cube's location!

I think the idea was to have a freaky visual. Seeing a baby in a Borg incubator thingy is a bigger emotional shock than seeing older children in Borg-ified situations. Also, seeing Janeway holding the baby as she ponders the impact of her decision is a strong image.

But, really, it was quite careless of the writers not to remember to include the baby in the resolution of the story.

I agree the visual of the baby was emotionally strong but would have been stronger if she remained on Voyager (or at least to the end of the episode). Instead the baby was just a plot device to get the audience to feel something but cast aside as soon as she wasn't needed for the plot anymore. That's shitty writing 101. They couldn't come up with anything else so they said, "Let's write a baby in there because everyone feels strongly about the survival of babies! Once we get the shot of Janeway holding her, we'll just pretend she wasn't there. Nobody will notice because they will be so interested in the four older children!"

True.... But the thing I noticed though was the Doc's sneaky attempt to use the baby to sway Janeway's decision of using the biological weapon..... and they used the baby to sway Seven's view of the borg children in that when she was holding it, she started to feel a bit of responsibility for what happens to them. (Just watched this last night actually)

Exactly. The baby was clearly just a plot device and they never had any intention of actually making it part of the story. That pisses me off.

The baby was creepy, it looked like it was made of jelly. I could have sworn I saw that baby die in that episode, I guess my brain just made that up to explain where it had gone.

Actually, it would have resolved the issue if the baby died at the end of the episode. Could have been an emotional scene with Seven, the children, Janeway, the Doctor, etc. I have a feeling the writers probably considered it since they didn't want the baby to continue in the series anyways. They probably chose not to have the baby die for fear of the episode becoming overly sad. Instead they just used her and then forgot about her within the episode. Every time I see this episode I ask, "Dammit, what happened to the baby?" when Janeway is making her personal log.

I actually think it would have been awesome if the baby was 'adopted' by someone on the crew who always wanted children but couldn't or something like that. The baby could be a fast growing species like Naomi so that the older children could see their 'baby sister' grow up. Could have been an interesting storyline. But continuity isn't one of Voyager's strong points!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well obviously not during the episode, which was an attempt at humour on my part, but later. It happened later and was so unimportant he thought that the handover didn't deserve screen time.

 

[Dream]

Like many things in VOY, the Borg baby's only purpose was to look cool, but it ended up being a plothole.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You shouldn't be rude about Jeri's boobies.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

I always figured that the baby was added because this was before Beltran started throwing a fit about never doing anything so that AWFUL C/7 story was added, he did have a point though, so having Janeway hold the child would have reiterated the fact that she herself admitted that she wanted children so I figured that her longing would pop up later at some time. But the baby did seem kind of forgotten but Janeway/Kate was adorable with the baby. So that little moment for me just seemed to forgive the fact that it was never mentioned again. As for Braga's statement it's the easy way out.

 

[AuntKate]

It wouldn't have taken that much time to mention that the baby's people were on their way.

However, the baby does reinforce the fact that the Borg assimilate rather than procreate. To me, it reminds me that the drones' reproductive organs have probably been removed to make room for servos or something.

 

[Guy Gardener]

We saw a Borg baby in TNG and at one point Seven appraised B'Elanna's method of reproduction as "inefficient".

I'm just curious about the whole 29th century cloning method of Borg assimilation? Since it's only a possible/potential route for their evolution. A "humane" borg would take one cell, thus assimilating the biological distinctiveness of the individual to be inserted into the collective and leave behind a person no worse for the ware. That could be a giant step forward to the Borg joining the community of the galaxy rather than being seen as some sort of macrovirus (I used macrovirus in a sentence!!! Praise me!!). However a bastard Borg would not just take one cell. Bastard Borg would use every viable cell that they can strain from each donor creating billions if not trillions of Drones or just merely as many thousand drones as they need from a single persons DNA, however of course there is the question of resources with creating maturation chambers on site, so that in the case of an invasion one drone per donor is a logistical limitation but afterwards, once a world is secured and they start farming, saying that the sky is the limit is no where near blue sky thinking for their pie in the sky aspirations which is exactly the numbers they would have to think about generating if they want to start making beachheads into an infinite number of Mirror Universes.

 

[exodus]

It wouldn't have taken that much time to mention that the baby's people were on their way.

However, the baby does reinforce the fact that the Borg assimilate rather than procreate.

Yes, that and showing the Borg assimilate infants is telling us the audience that even if they're ever freed from the collective, they will resist far more than Seven did. The only memories that baby/person will ever have is one as a Borg. It won't desire to reclaim it's life before assimilation because it never had one. All infants assimilated and grown into the collective will always be Borg, they can't be saved. Those lives are lost forever.

 

[exodus]

We saw a Borg baby in TNG and at one point Seven appraised B'Elanna's method of reproduction as "inefficient".

I'm just curious about the whole 29th century cloning method of Borg assimilation? Since it's only a possible/potential route for their evolution. A "humane" borg would take one cell, thus assimilating the biological distinctiveness of the individual to be inserted into the collective and leave behind a person no worse for the ware. That could be a giant step forward to the Borg joining the community of the galaxy rather than being seen as some sort of macrovirus (I used macrovirus in a sentence!!! Praise me!!). However a bastard Borg would not just take one cell. Bastard Borg would use every viable cell that they can strain from each donor creating billions if not trillions of Drones or just merely as many thousand drones as they need from a single persons DNA, however of course there is the question of resources with creating maturation chambers on site, so that in the case of an invasion one drone per donor is a logistical limitation but afterwards, once a world is secured and they start farming, saying that the sky is the limit is no where near blue sky thinking for their pie in the sky aspirations which is exactly the numbers they would have to think about generating if they want to start making beachheads into an infinite number of Mirror Universes.

Wouldn't a clone be seen by the Borg as an imperfect being because it's a copy?

I assumed that's why we've never seen Borg Vorta or Jem'Hadar.
They can be defective and taint the collective.

 

[Cepstrum]

I watched Collective again the other night on Space and still don't understand the point of having the baby in the episode. We all know that she was forgotten and never spoken of again. I chalked it up to shitty writing. But what I hadn't really noticed is that she was actually forgotten within the episode itself!

Other than the scene where she had to be helped in Voyager's sickbay (and where Janeway held her), she wasn't mentioned again. Even near the end of the episode, Janeway says that they now have FOUR children that need to be cared for but makes no mention of the baby, which would probably need the most care of all. And right at the very end, the older children learn their names and where they came from in the cargo bay before regenerating. They don't ask what will become of the baby nor does Seven say anything about her. Then the ship flies off.

Within the episode itself, did the writers not think the audience would be wondering what the hell happened to the baby when they explicitly talk about now having the four older children? It seems the baby was just thrown in so they could get the older children to trust the Voyager crew. If they had no intention to keep the baby until at least the end of the episode for goodness sake, why not make one of those twin boys that never got any lines, sick?

It's funny you (and others) wonder why they never resolved the Borg baby issue. I'm a big VOY fan and liked "Collective" and the addition of the Borglings.

But what's funny is that the writers successfully fooled me. I never thought about the Borg baby and quickly forgot about it (despite many repeat viewings). I guess the writers were counting on people like I who so quickly focused on Icheb and Mezotti that I forgot. I'd probably miss the twins, too, except they had sufficient screen time.


But two people I really had forgotten about were Lindsay Ballard, especially her close friendship with Harry until I saw "Ashes to Ashes". Likewise, the woman seen later in "Latent Image" — I forgot so much about her years aboard Voyager that I forgot her name and everything about her until I saw "Latent Image"!

No wonder I had forgotten about the Borg baby except when I see "Collective" or hear discussions about it online. Clearly my memory is suspect — I have a terrible time with names and faces!

 

[exodus]

I watched Collective again the other night on Space and still don't understand the point of having the baby in the episode. We all know that she was forgotten and never spoken of again. I chalked it up to shitty writing. But what I hadn't really noticed is that she was actually forgotten within the episode itself!

Other than the scene where she had to be helped in Voyager's sickbay (and where Janeway held her), she wasn't mentioned again. Even near the end of the episode, Janeway says that they now have FOUR children that need to be cared for but makes no mention of the baby, which would probably need the most care of all. And right at the very end, the older children learn their names and where they came from in the cargo bay before regenerating. They don't ask what will become of the baby nor does Seven say anything about her. Then the ship flies off.

Within the episode itself, did the writers not think the audience would be wondering what the hell happened to the baby when they explicitly talk about now having the four older children? It seems the baby was just thrown in so they could get the older children to trust the Voyager crew. If they had no intention to keep the baby until at least the end of the episode for goodness sake, why not make one of those twin boys that never got any lines, sick?

It's funny you (and others) wonder why they never resolved the Borg baby issue. I'm a big VOY fan and liked "Collective" and the addition of the Borglings.

But what's funny is that the writers successfully fooled me. I never thought about the Borg baby and quickly forgot about it (despite many repeat viewings). I guess the writers were counting on people like I who so quickly focused on Icheb and Mezotti that I forgot. I'd probably miss the twins, too, except they had sufficient screen time.

Yes, I think you're right.
That and when Voyager would get sold into syndication, it would likely be shown out of order anyway. So I don't think they expected the casual viewer to remember or care about the fate of the baby. Besides Icheb, Mezoti & the twins remained the same from "Collective" to the time they leave. They we're meant to be much more than passangers along the trip.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Wouldn't a clone be seen by the Borg as an imperfect being because it's a copy?

I assumed that's why we've never seen Borg Vorta or Jem'Hadar.
They can be defective and taint the collective.

The Borg are so arrogant to think that the apex of their technology is perfection. if they suddenly think that they do have the ability to produce perfect clones, then they will use it, and if they have to go through some product testing, it's not like they've had a 100 percent success rate? Unimatrix Zero shows that when they are in a mood to examine if their Borg are as perfect they claim they're ready to throw out a million babies with an ounce of bathwater since they have the highest of standards... Anyone thinking about the educated eggdicator from Charlie and the Chocolate factory that said Verruca salt was a bad egg?

Sounds like don't ask don't tell to me.

What about the mentally ill or cancer?

The founders pre-date the Borg if we are to believe the Vadwaar. Remember how Kirk gave that planet of savages Flintlocks to fight their war because they couldn't trust a child race with modern weapons? Isn't it possible fearing a revolt and completely not trusting the icky solids that they are not handing over their really good technology to the Jem'hadar and only give them enough to stand firm against all the other hokey dinky camps and hovels scrounging around the boondocks like the federation and the Romulans... But the Borg have seen the Founders in their Sunday best being righteous and furious drawing lines in space and lo it's been half a millennia they remember that spanking.

Or not?

 

[Cepstrum]

It's funny you (and others) wonder why they never resolved the Borg baby issue. I'm a big VOY fan and liked "Collective" and the addition of the Borglings.

But what's funny is that the writers successfully fooled me. I never thought about the Borg baby and quickly forgot about it (despite many repeat viewings). I guess the writers were counting on people like I who so quickly focused on Icheb and Mezoti that I forgot. I'd probably miss the twins, too, except they had sufficient screen time.

Yes, I think you're right.
That and when Voyager would get sold into syndication, it would likely be shown out of order anyway. So I don't think they expected the casual viewer to remember or care about the fate of the baby. Besides Icheb, Mezoti & the twins remained the same from "Collective" to the time they leave. They we're meant to be much more than passangers along the trip.

Thanks, exodus, for confirming my suspicions — though I would add I most definitely not a casual VOY viewer.

But like I said, I easily forgot names and faces, on TV and IRL. This is me: That, combined with my shyness, makes it a nightmare anytime I'm out in public and run into someone I apparently know. If I see someone that looks familiar, I try to "hide".


And yet, no comment about my "forgetfulness" of Lindsay Ballard and the female officer in "Latent Image"? Rats; I was really trying to insert some humor and get a rise. Oh well; I expected as much. As a geeky engineer who *almost never* laughs out loud or even chuckles/smiles, and find most forms of comedy to be banal/insipid, I should've known better than to make such an ill-advised attept at ironic humor.






One more thing: why, in syndication, would any station show episodes out of order?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Production order and airing order can be and is usually odds are some where different, and the shit of the matter is, is that original airing order trumps production order. Every time they rerun TOS down here they play the third episode, the man trap first before where no man has been before.

It's weird.

Crusade is a mother fucker. The producers (Same excuse was giving for making a second pilot for firefly) were told by suits that they wanted the action packed space battle fighting episodes up first in the line up even if the over all story didn't completely make sense any more and that the crew were wearing a change of uniform they hadn't aired the episode where they got them in yet and them hopscotch back and forth between the new and old uniforms from week to week.

And here's the real weird thing. Episodes are sometimes produced out of order because of the availability of resources that if there's a short fall and they have to hand in a finished episode? Well what does it really matter usually?

Oh, I recall one episode of something (yes "something" so I don't actually recall much) where a character had been killed off but they hadn't aired all his episodes yet because things had been shuffled about so they had to film an extra two minutes for the beginning of the episode where the still living characters frame the story by explaining that they are remembering some thing happened months earlier.

Few shows made in the US have the luxury of being allowed to complete filming a season before they have to hand in weekly finished product.

 

[exodus]

It's funny you (and others) wonder why they never resolved the Borg baby issue. I'm a big VOY fan and liked "Collective" and the addition of the Borglings.

But what's funny is that the writers successfully fooled me. I never thought about the Borg baby and quickly forgot about it (despite many repeat viewings). I guess the writers were counting on people like I who so quickly focused on Icheb and Mezoti that I forgot. I'd probably miss the twins, too, except they had sufficient screen time.

Yes, I think you're right.
That and when Voyager would get sold into syndication, it would likely be shown out of order anyway. So I don't think they expected the casual viewer to remember or care about the fate of the baby. Besides Icheb, Mezoti & the twins remained the same from "Collective" to the time they leave. They we're meant to be much more than passangers along the trip.

Thanks, exodus, for confirming my suspicions — though I would add I most definitely not a casual VOY viewer.

But like I said, I easily forgot names and faces, on TV and IRL. This is me: That, combined with my shyness, makes it a nightmare anytime I'm out in public and run into someone I apparently know. If I see someone that looks familiar, I try to "hide".


And yet, no comment about my "forgetfulness" of Lindsay Ballard and the female officer in "Latent Image"? Rats; I was really trying to insert some humor and get a rise. Oh well; I expected as much. As a geeky engineer who *almost never* laughs out loud or even chuckles/smiles, and find most forms of comedy to be banal/insipid, I should've known better than to make such an ill-advised attept at ironic humor.






One more thing: why, in syndication, would any station show episodes out of order?

..because they see most of their audience as casual viewers and not someone that tunes in to a show daily due it them being repeats of originally run shows. So syndication likes to show what you could call "the best of.." on each show they purchase. For example: if you watch "King Of Queens" or "Friends" in syndication, they don't show full seasons. Only choice eps. from the entire series. One day will be an ep. from s1 while tomorrow it could be an ep. from s5. Unless you were a die hard fan of the show, most don't know, notice or care. This is why DS9 was very hard to show in syndication because you have to show most of it in order due to it being arc based. Syndication usually doesn't like to buy arc based shows if they can help it. If you notice StargateSG-1 showed just enough of the eps. to keep the main parts of their arc based stories but still not every ep. That's why Paramount didn't want Voyager to have strong arcs because they were afraid they couldn't sell it into syndication to make money back from it. You'd be surprised at how many casual viewers didn't even notice they swapped out Kes for Seven of Nine due to mixing up the eps. It's also why they don't repeat two-part eps.

Take notice too that rerun syndication shows are mostly shown between 4-6, when folks are getting home from work and preparing dinner. They know, most of the audience is preoccupied and not paying full attention. Syndication doesn't work on ratings, they just need shows to fill dead air space.