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Weight classes of Federation starships - re-examined

Were there huge battleships in Kirk's era that dwarfed the Enterprise?

  • Yes

    Votes: 13 44.8%
  • No

    Votes: 16 55.2%

  • Total voters
    29

INACTIVEUSS Einstein

Fleet Captain
Fleet Captain
I grew up thinking, thanks to the assumptions of the time and the charts in the Star Trek: Encyclopedia, that Starfleet ships generally got bigger over the centuries, with each Enterprise representing the largest class in it's era - Constitution > Excelsior > Ambassador > Galaxy > Sovereign. But recently, I've encountered a few forumers who, because of the giant size of the Kelvinverse ships, have opined that the original USS Enterprise NCC-1701 may have just been a smaller class, with far larger ships present alongside Kirk's famous exploratory vessel (the same idea is present in some of the older novels).

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In light of the Abrams movies, and in light of Discovery, I was wondering it it was time to look again at the weight classes of Federation starships - perhaps, contrary to fans assumptions based on the charts in the Encyclopedia (and other sources that may have given the impression), there have always been larger vessels present during TOS. But how does the Kelvin, say, fit into a larger weight category when it does not seem to be a battleship?

In a navy, especially around WW2, generally:
  • - Corvettes are the smallest class of warship, for fast intercept and patrol
  • - Frigates are the mainstay of the fleet, designed to protect other ships
  • - Destroyers are roughly the size of frigates, with more focus on firepower
  • - Crusiers are the multi-purpose workhorse of a fleet, capable of any role
  • - Battlecruisers have size/power like a battleship, but armor like a cruiser
  • - Battleships are the largest and heaviest class of ship, with thick armor
These days cruisers tend to be the largest non-carrier ship, with the battleship falling out of favor because of how much more effective carriers were at projecting firepower over long distances. When the Russians fielded the Kirov class battlecruiser, the US Navy re-activated the WW2-era Iowa Class battleship. The idea was that since the Russians had fielded a huge surface ship again, the US Navy needed something that could survive direct punishment from such a ship, with tons of armor. It's possible that Starfleet only operated cruisers during TOS, but given the presence of such large vessels in the Kelvin timeline, it's also possible we just didn't see them during TOS. Looking at weight:

This would mean that the original Enterprise was a cruiser (heavy cruiser as the movies say)

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The Enterprise D was a battleship, and the Abrams Enterprise is a battleship-class rather than cruiser

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The Kelvin itself may have been a large heli-carrier/landing platform, explaining it's size and shuttles

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The Defiant would have been a corvette, and again, it's borne out by being called an "escort"

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So in other words, during TOS, maybe there existed ships the size of the USS Kelvin and USS Enterprise-D, and Kirk's Enterprise was not the largest ship in the fleet, but rather a class of cruiser. When the Abrams-verse Enterprise is commissioned, it is instead envisioned as a battleship class, like the Galaxy-class explorer (referred to as a battleship in Yesterday's Enterprise, and seen acting as a slow heavy warship in the Dominion War). When the Enterprise-D is commissioned, the Galaxy class is effectively not the successor to the Constitution class, but rather to whatever huge battleship class existed in the time of TOS (the 1984 novel "My Enemy, My Ally" mentions a class with a saucer that dwarfs the Enterprise - sounds a bit like a Kelvin-timeline ship). So, the progression of Constitution > Excelsior > Ambassador > Galaxy > Sovereign, begins to look like cruiser > battlecruiser > battlecruiser > battleship > battlecruiser, with the Sovereign class and Romulan Valdore-type being significantly lighter in volume than the Galaxy and D'Deridex - perhaps in response to the Borg and Dominion.

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It would mean the Nebula class, which has almost the same internal volume as a Galaxy class, was probably also battleship-weight - it certainly caused havoc in Cardassian space in "The Wounded". The Kelvin may have existed in both timelines, as a large heli-carrier/command and control/landing platform type ship, which when not in times of war, would have been ideal for planetary surveys and humanitarian missions.

What do you think?
 
Defender-class of Diane Duane's My Enemy, My Ally (mile-long, crewed by elephant sized nonhumanoids)

The 70-deck USS Recovery hospital mega-ship from the Lost Years novel Recovery.

The USS Star Empire, from Diane Carey's Dreadnought!


The Trek universe was a far more colourful place in the novels.
 
Larger ships than the TOS Enterprise were already in service a hundred years earlier in both the Vulcan and Xindi fleets. In the real world, we see modern naval forces whose main vessels aren't much larger than their counterparts of a century earlier (and are actually much smaller). So that's two examples of the fact that size is NOT a proxy for technological progress.

If ships the size of Voyager, Equinox and Defiant can operate side by side with Galaxy and Sovereign class ships, there is NO justification for the assumption that other large vessels didn't exist in the 23rd century. Voyager could well be the 24th century equivalent of a Constitution class starship, in which case the NuEnterprise is yesteryear's Galaxy class.
 
The Defiant-class is pretty obviously a destroyer - Small and heavily armed, with little if any extraneous room.

The D Enterprise is a cruise ship with guns, but by size I'd say a battlecruiser - like most Starfleet ships there's plenty of room for more firepower, so it probably isn't a battleship.

Voyager and the Intrepid-class are probably cruisers or light cruisers.

Sovereign-class is either a battleship or a battlecruiser.
 
The Defiant-class is pretty obviously a destroyer - Small and heavily armed, with little if any extraneous room.
Or a Perimeter Action Ship. I know the design isn't canon, but I always felt that it SHOULD be because it makes a certain amount of sense.

The D Enterprise is a cruise ship with guns, but by size I'd say a battlecruiser - like most Starfleet ships there's plenty of room for more firepower, so it probably isn't a battleship.

Voyager and the Intrepid-class are probably cruisers or light cruisers.

Sovereign-class is either a battleship or a battlecruiser.
Well, they're actually NONE of these things because starfleet doesn't build "battleships" as such.

What it actually builds are "cruisers" which seem to be built for speed and versatility, and "exploration vessels" which are built to survey distant worlds at VERY long distances from explored space. The exploration vessels carry large complements of shuttlecraft, well-stocked and advanced laboratories, highly advanced sensor systems, and some of the best specialists the Federation has ever recruited.

The reason the NuEnterprise is equivalent to the Galaxy and Sovereign is just that: size, shuttle complement, and crew. The E-D and the Sovereign aren't notable for it, but they devote a HUGE amount of their internal space to these enormous shuttlebays that carry literally dozens of shuttles and small auxiliary craft. NuEnterprise does the same; most of its engineering section is actually a giant shuttle bay, and the rest is filled with machinery and piping that is probably related to both power generation and manufacturing of spare parts, recycling of food and material science.

Really, ANY long-range mission the Federation wanted to take in the 23rd century would have certain design requirements and those requirements imply a vessel of a particular size. It's not like the Federation COULDN'T build ships like that; given the existence of Shroomdock and other large space stations, they obviously could. It's really just a question of what did they look like and what they were doing while the Enterprise was cruising around the back woods. At least one of them probably looked like the Kelvin, and it's unclear whether or not the Kelvinverse version of the Constitution class would have been another.
 
Author Diane Carey did create a neat battleship for her TOS novel "Dreadnought!".

The USS Star Empire (MKC-2331).

Diane Carey consulted the Star Fleet Technical Manual when writing the novel thus her three-nacelled Dreadnought-type ship is inspired by Franz Joseph's Federation-Class Dreadnought and almost equal in size.

"Star Empire is the Federation's most powerful new weapon – a dreadnought, first in a class of super-starships – capable of outgunning a dozen Klingon cruisers, or subduing a galaxy."

(Star Trek Into Darkness' script has been accused of being greatly "influenced" by Star Trek: Dreadnought!.)
 
First - the classifications do NOT represent the specific size of a ship. A purely naval example:

HMS Dreadnought (1906 Battleship) ~ 20,000 tons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Dreadnought_(1906)

USS Des Moines (1946 Cruiser) ~ 17,000 tons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Des_Moines_(CA-134)

These are within 3,000 tons of each other - and the Des Moines could probably take the Dreadnought out pretty fast. Mainly due to the rate of fire difference, speed difference and range advantage all going to Des Moines. If Dreadnought can get close enough to score a couple of 12" hits, the Des Moines will definitely feel it though...

Only about 40 years separates these two ships.

(Anyone else HATE trying to type with these horrible ads constantly refreshing?)
 
First - the classifications do NOT represent the specific size of a ship. A purely naval example:

HMS Dreadnought (1906 Battleship) ~ 20,000 tons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Dreadnought_(1906)

USS Des Moines (1946 Cruiser) ~ 17,000 tons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Des_Moines_(CA-134)

These are within 3,000 tons of each other - and the Des Moines could probably take the Dreadnought out pretty fast. Mainly due to the rate of fire difference, speed difference and range advantage all going to Des Moines. If Dreadnought can get close enough to score a couple of 12" hits, the Des Moines will definitely feel it though...

Only about 40 years separates these two ships.

(Anyone else HATE trying to type with these horrible ads constantly refreshing?)

Time makes a huge difference. Those two ships above have 40 years of rapid naval evolution between them. Different era, different requirements. The first US pre-dreadnought battleship (USS Texas, 1892) had a displacement of 6,316 tons. The first US dreadnought battleships (South Carolina-class, 1908) had a displacement of about 16,000 tons. The last US battleships (Iowa-class, 1942) reached a displacement of 59,000 tons. The planned but never constructed Montana-class battleships would have reached the stunning 70,965 tons of displacement!
 
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I wonder also if the TOS universe, or even the TNG one, has anything like Yorktown Base from Star Trek Beyond? Try as I might, the best I can imagine floating outside the Necro Cloud in the Prime Universe is another reuse of the Regula-1 model.
 
I wonder also if the TOS universe, or even the TNG one, has anything like Yorktown Base from Star Trek Beyond? Try as I might, the best I can imagine floating outside the Necro Cloud in the Prime Universe is another reuse of the Regula-1 model.

More likely a reuse of the Earth Spacedock model (à la Starbase 74, Starbase 84, Starbase 133, Lya Station Alpha) like they did in TNG. Which would have been fine by me as I love that model. Not only the the model but the subsequent discussion about it's size! ;)
 
"Time makes a difference" is a valid remark, but applies to all of Trek to the third power - not only does Trek span several centuries in storyline, but features a mixture of cultures whose technological progress may span millennia and often is not in good synch.

"Weight class" is pretty much nonsense as a concept today, and was such in WWII and WWI as well. Still, we know for a fact that Starfleet likes to apply 20th century naval buzzwords to its vessels. What remains arguable is whether it applies those in anything resembling the 20th century manner. ITRW, we know the British had no qualms of grossly and deliberately "misusing" words like frigate or sloop in the 20th century, as sharply opposed to all the precedent of the sailing centuries. Starfleet for its part might well have decided that battleship for them means the same as corvette does for us today (so the Defiant is one), and that cruisers are the biggest capital ships in existence, or then second only to explorers.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Huge battleships the size of the Sovereign-class or the nuEnterprise certainly not.

Only the slightly larger dreadnoughts of the Federation-class.

Exactly. What constitutes "dwarf?" Slightly larger, sure. Super Star Destroyer size? Not in my opinion. Although, I do like the idea of the Defender Class ships manned by largish aliens. It wouldn't be a giant ship in their opinion.
 
How come no one compares them to commercial merchant ships? They are pretty big. Bigger than battleships.
 
Yep - "Megatankers" can exceed 500,000 tons displacement! Some of the larger Cruise Liners are the size of a supercarrier (~ 100,000 tons).
 
And that's a Trek oddity right there: we basically never see large cargo ships. The only exception is the ENT era Earth ore train, but how come ore subsequently is hauled by midgets like the Woden or the Xhosa? Why haul ore in blue 150 liter barrels? Refined substances, yeah, precious materials, yeah, but ore by the very definition is mostly garbage.

Timo Saloniemi
 
In a navy, especially around WW2, generally:
  • - Corvettes are the smallest class of warship, for fast intercept and patrol
  • - Frigates are the mainstay of the fleet, designed to protect other ships
  • - Destroyers are roughly the size of frigates, with more focus on firepower
  • - Crusiers are the multi-purpose workhorse of a fleet, capable of any role
  • - Battlecruisers have size/power like a battleship, but armor like a cruiser
  • - Battleships are the largest and heaviest class of ship, with thick armor

In WW2 naval warfare had become three-headed: Surface threat, submarine threat, air threat. The corvette and frigate were explicitly anti-submarine, the corvettes being essentially merchant ship designs adapted for mass production and the frigates being more warship-ized but still economical. Corvettes were not fast!

In Trek it is all "surface," even cloaked ships don't seem to get a specialized counter-vessel. It seems definitely more like a pre-aviation navy, maybe even a pre-torpedo boat navy. So it might be more like a sailing fleet, not as specialized, basically small, medium and large. Large for the strategic, decisive battles, small for trade protection, local patrol and small-time stuff, and medium for everything else. Medium-large, more for working with the main battle fleet (or substituting for it in a more out-of-the-way region), medium-small more for independent duty.

So, is 1701-prime the biggest Starfleet has to offer? My feeling is no, but there's not much to go on, so maybe it is. What they do in TOS is classic cruiser duty. Four of them work as an unescorted group for war games, but they might be practicing for a sideline battle, not the main show.

The thing about Trek is that frontier patrol and exploration frequently turn out to be just as dangerous as any wartime mission. So it would not be surprising to use the most powerful ships available, or close to it.

Huge battleships the size of the Sovereign-class or the nuEnterprise certainly not.

Only the slightly larger dreadnoughts of the Federation-class.

Agreed. But if there are big FJ dreadnought-types in TOS's day, where are they? There's never one around when you need one, anyway.
 
But Kirk is never around when one needs a dreadnough, either. He misses out on all the big wars due to being assigned a frontier cruiser that runs silly errands: during the one involving "Mercy", no doubt the big ships fought their Klingon counterparts while Kirk's vessel had to immediately flee when facing a surprise Klingon occupation force on a backwater planet.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Usually you don't send your big capital ships on border patrol and on backwater stations. That's for other ship types. Just like the 18th-19th century ships-of-the-line, WW1 battleships and WW2 carriers were closer at home and/or stationed in bigger important bases.
 
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