Spoilers Was it a mistake to kill Kirk in Star Trek Generations?

[fireproof78]

I mentioned that Kor had a better exit, and realize that what makes it impactful is that we don’t see his actual death happen. It’s left to our imaginations how he was able to accomplish his mission and sacrifice himself, and that makes it more powerful.

I dunno if that would work for a MOVIE, it definitely needed to feel grand in a sense. A more mythical type of death you hear told in stories.

I think seeing the death isn't the problem. I think the accidental nature, the randomness of it as an event, is unsettling from a pop culture point of view. The Kirk of legend should have a legendary death.

I don't know how it would look necessarily. I think Kirk defeating Soren by cleaver means would be more satisfying and making that sacrifice by trapping Soren in some way.

 

[Discofan]

I think seeing the death isn't the problem. I think the accidental nature, the randomness of it as an event, is unsettling from a pop culture point of view. The Kirk of legend should have a legendary death.

I don't know how it would look necessarily. I think Kirk defeating Soren by cleaver means would be more satisfying and making that sacrifice by trapping Soren in some way.

Morality: You shouldn't take a sleigh ride when there's no snow...

 

[Discofan]

Btw, Kirk was stuck under three tons of metal or about... Yet Picard extracted him from there, took him to the top of the mountain (or hill whatever) then gathered a pile of rocks that he put on top of Kirk. WOW!!! Superman!!!

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Btw, Kirk was stuck under three tons of metal or about... Yet Picard extracted him from there, took him to the top of the mountain (or hill whatever) then gathered a pile of rocks that he put on top of Kirk. WOW!!! Superman!!!

It has to have been in Shatner's contract.

Shatner to Moore: "Uh, hey Ron? I see you gave Kirk a Starfleet standard landing party burial. A very respectable gesture for any officer in the fleet. But I think Kirk deserves to be ON TOP of the mountain, because, after all, he made love to the mountain."

 

[STEPhon IT]

It was appropriate for the recovery team bring Kirk's body along with the Enterprise crew back to Earth instead of leaving him on that planet. Very odd way to treat a historical and decorated officer, this must be the way Hollywood honor icons.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Here's a thought. They need to release an "extended edition" of Generations, where the only change is a post-credits scene of Kirk chopping wood at his cabin, then cut to black.

It'll open the door for future adventures (though with Shatner at 90, those are probably not gonna happen...).

 

[DonIago]

It was appropriate for the recovery team bring Kirk's body along with the Enterprise crew back to Earth instead of leaving him on that planet. Very odd way to treat a historical and decorated officer, this must be the way Hollywood honor icons.

I thought it was respectful enough, but it's hard for me to imagine them leaving Kirk's body or even his insignia behind due to potential Prime Directive considerations if nothing else.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I always thought it was fitting giving his comments in Star Trek V.

He gave his life to save a world of strangers far from friends and home.

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"I've always known I'll die alone. Except sometimes there's a bald British guy with me. But a good 80-90% of the time, I'm alone."

More seriously, I'll never understand why some people take that "I've always known I'll die alone" line as some kind of gospel. Kirk isn't psychic, he was just having maudlin moment.

The TNG writers didn't know what to do with Kirk --other than kill him -- so his appearances are kind of awkwardly spliced on there. Kirk dies and the focus promptly shifted to "Spot The Cat" - a character the writers that were comfortable writing about. The movie was funny in that way.

One of the things that drives me absolutely NUTS about GEN. The filmmakers literally expected me to get more choked up about Data finding his damn cat than about them killing off James T. Kirk after nearly 30 years. Clueless.

In my mind, Picard never met the REAL James T. Kirk anyway, just his echo in the Nexus. Because as soon as Spock heard about Kirk's "death" on the Enterprise-B in 2293, he high-tailed it over to that sector of space, found out where Kirk had disappeared to, and pulled him out of the Nexus. Anything less would be out of character for Spock.

 

[tesral]

In my mind, Picard never met the REAL James T. Kirk anyway, just his echo in the Nexus. Because as soon as Spock heard about Kirk's "death" on the Enterprise-B in 2293, he high-tailed over to that sector of space, found out where Kirk had disappeared to, and pulled him out of the Nexus. Anything less would be out of character for Spock.

This among other things is why I scrub Generations from my head canon. I took the first 15 minutes apart and it is so full of bad decisions, character and writer as to destroy the whole film for me. Is there a worst Trek film? Yes and Abrams you are off the hook. It's Generations.

 

[fireproof78]

I thought it was respectful enough, but it's hard for me to imagine them leaving Kirk's body or even his insignia behind due to potential Prime Directive considerations if nothing else.

Veridian 3 is uninhabited if I am recalling dialog correctly.

 

[Henoch]

Veridian 3 is uninhabited if I am recalling dialog correctly.

Veridian 4 supports a pre-industrial humanoid society of 230 million, so, in a few hundred years, they may colonize Veridian 3 and discover Kirk's remains. Wow! What a discovery! Aliens!

 

[fireproof78]

Veridian 4 supports a pre-industrial humanoid society of 230 million, so, is a few hundred years, they may colonize Veridian 3 and discover Kirk's remains. Wow! What a discovery! Aliens!

I mean, that assumes a lot but sure.

 

[DonIago]

It doesn't seem to be assuming that much? We've sent probes to Mars, why wouldn't the Veridians send a probe or two to Veridian 3? Veridian 3 also seems a lot more hospitable than Mars, though perhaps not to natives of Veridian 4?

 

[fireproof78]

It doesn't seem to be assuming that much? We've sent probes to Mars, why wouldn't the Veridians send a probe or two to Veridian 3? Veridian 3 also seems a lot more hospitable than Mars, though perhaps not to natives of Veridian 4?

Given that the Veridians should be able to observe at least some of what was going on their neighboring planet the conclusion that Kirk's corpse, but not the ship activity, would not impact that planet is something I find odd, to say the least. Maybe their art will feature an expansive depiction of oddly shaped UFOS or something.

I don't know. I guess I lack the imagination to see them finding this ancient grave site, weathered and eroded, and concluded thusly that these are aliens.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

It was appropriate for the recovery team bring Kirk's body along with the Enterprise crew back to Earth instead of leaving him on that planet. Very odd way to treat a historical and decorated officer, this must be the way Hollywood honor icons.

I sense a lot of baggage with your last remark.

 

[Dryson]

Many great Captains have died in battle. Offing Kirk in Generations was a wake for the fans to realize that reality is a factor in Trek. Much as it is in the real world, Captains and Commanders of troops die while fighting.

 

[fireproof78]

Offing Kirk the way they did, by accident, was very much in line with Roddenberry's view that death is sometimes unremarkable. In that instance, I can see the point because I don't always think that heroes deserve special treatment in stories. In fact, I sometimes feel that we are slaves to this hero worship obsession and it blinds us to the nature of the world. Maybe I am too embroiled with much of mythology and classic literature, especially Greek, in which the heroes have a fatal flaw of some kind, or do not get a "happily ever after," such as in Man in the Iron Mask. I think treating heroes as though they deserve special treatment is an interesting insight in to how we regard our media.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Offing Kirk the way they did, by accident, was very much in line with Roddenberry's view that death is sometimes unremarkable. In that instance, I can see the point because I don't always think that heroes deserve special treatment in stories. In fact, I sometimes feel that we are slaves to this hero worship obsession and it blinds us to the nature of the world. Maybe I am too embroiled with much of mythology and classic literature, especially Greek, in which the heroes have a fatal flaw of some kind, or do not get a "happily ever after," such as in Man in the Iron Mask. I think treating heroes as though they deserve special treatment is an interesting insight in to how we regard our media.

I agree with this 147%.

IMO, a death should always work for the story first. Just because Kirk is such an iconic character doesn't mean he needs to have the most poetic death of all time and that everyone should stop what they are doing and make a giant dedication in his name. There's a deleted scene in AVENGERS: ENDGAME where after Tony Stark dies EVERY character takes a knee on the field. I am SO glad that was cut out because to me that kind of thing is just way too over the top, especially since the film already has a pretty poignant funeral.

If Kirk had to die by just being unceremoniously shot in the back like in the original climax, I would have been open to seeing that play out if it felt earned for the story. By all accounts, that didn't seem to be the case, which is why his death felt flat. He was barely in the movie as it was, so his sudden death just didn't have the punch it needed. Which is too bad.

For what it's worth, here's the very scene that Ron Moore said inspired him to write Kirk's original death. John Wayne gets unceremoniously shot in the back. I get what Ron Moore is going for, but in order for that type of death to work Kirk should have been more integral to the story of GENERATIONS.

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