See? It makes no sense!
Warp 10 barrier
- Thread starter someone74
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Why? What does that mean, and why would being at a given (impossible, infinite) speed put you there? As opposed to any other warp speed (that aborted order to ram a Borg ship at warp speed would be irrelevant unless it was going to crash).
All of you. All of you is at every location, all at the same time. We're talking infinite speed, so the math kind of blows up.
Chaktoay was the one who made the decision to leave the offspring where they were. Not Janeway and Paris.
It's likely that the decision was made because they seemed to be 'thriving' as Salamanders in that habitat, and probably because they had no meaningful human DNA for the EMH to use so they can be turned into Humans (Janeway and Paris started out as humans, and by the time they had offspring, only trace amount of their original human DNA was present in their system - its fairly likely the offspring never had any human DNA to work with).
On the other hand, Janeway did make an off comment about being turned into a Salamander on Pro in S1 (L.D. also had someone in that form as its likely SF was experimenting with the Warp 10 Threshold - though why send the person to the farm instead when VOY already came up with a solution is beyond me)... so if the series is renewed for a third season, its entirely possible someone might actually make it happen.
At any rate, I don't see the problem.
The entire crew understands the reasoning behind that set of circumstances, so no one should really make a huge deal out of it.
Have the offspring meet both Janeway and Paris, get to know them and the circumstances that led to their existence from the get go and case closed.
That IS in fact how you'd expect humans who understand basics of science to react... with Trek writers, I'm sure we will get endless useless drama just for the sake of it when it could be in fact a non-issue B-story to a larger plot.
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Being out of phase means that you're mostly out of 'touch' with the physical reality/universe in most ways.
As we saw in TNG, both Ro and Geordi were placed out of phase due to an experimental cloak the Romulans were toying with.
They were sufficiently out of phase so they couldn't be seen, heard and could pass through most solid objects... but we also noticed they never fell through the floor - so to me that meant that a sufficiently powerful gravity field (like the gravity plating used on ships) prevented out of phase people from falling through the floor itself.
But as we saw, in that phased state, people can still interact with the universe at large. Both Geordi and Ro used a Romulan disruptor to set off the sensors which eventually allowed them to be brought back out of phase - so it stands to reason that occupying every point in the universe would also allow for the environment to interact with the person travelling at Warp 10 and being in a similar phased state - unless specifically insulated from it).
When you're at Warp, its accurate you can crash into something (like a planet), so its evident that sufficiently powerful gravity fields can still affect a ship at FTL speeds (like we saw) - remember that they don't actively ENTER subspace while at Warp, they just use it to travel at FTL speeds - so they're still interacting heavily with the existing reality at Warp.
Think of Warp as allowing a ship to be 'dislocatied' from the universe at a tiny level, whereas anything more like Borg TW or QS are not as affected.
Warp 10 (infinite velocity) puts you mostly out of touch with the universe (but probably not entirely - and to be able to account for that could be... difficult).
Other FTL propulsion seems to operate on different principles.
Borg TW and Quantum Slipstream for example are similar to each other in how they work (but obviously not identical).
To that effect, travelling at Warp 10 means travelling at infinite velocity and existing at every point in the universe at the same time.
In order to be able to do that (obviously), you'd need to be able to move into a different state of being - or for all intents and purposes, out of phase is the simplest explanation.
Borg TW and QS are different technologies that likely do allow you to bypass planets and most gravity fields altogether for all we know, BUT, you can still EXIT both into a planet or black hole, or a star.
The sudden changes between shifting from either Borg TW or QS into normal space and directly into a star would likely be enough to tear a ship apart (kind of like what almost happened to Discovery when it exited the spore drive right on top of a star).
There's that aspect, whatever vessel opens up the aperture into normal space on top of a star.
But there's also the fact that some of the star's energy might leak into the TransWarp Corridor or Quantum SlipStream.
If any vessel was following the one that exited, it might have a "UnExpected Encounter" with a Solar Flare or Significant Amount of Solar Energy that could cause a chain event like the equivalent of a multi-car pile up on the free way, but at a StarShip level.
It would be disastrous to open up a TW Aperture or QS Aperture anywhere near a major stellar Phenomenon.
I would posit its less of a concern of an energy leaking from a star or stellar phenomena into a TW or QS 'conduit' vs exiting the said 'conduit' right near or on top of a star or an anomaly in general (and suffering the too sudden change in environmental/gravity conditions).
To date, we hadn't seen stellar phenomena interact with TW conduits or QS in that capacity (which doesn't negate the chances of it happening, but I would say its a non-issue).
But more to the point, space is so vast, that even on a galactic scale such as ours, the odds of hitting a star (or even a stray asteroid for that matter) are a statistical improbability (even in Trek) - well, most of the time.
If you're working with extremely fast velocities of 10,000 Ly's per minute, it might become a problem because you're moving so fast.
Still, the distances between objects in real space are vast... so vast in fact that even travelling at very high speeds you'd still be risking very little in terms of 'hitting an object when exiting TW or QS'.
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We're also assuming they have a sense of where the opening is relative to Normal space, so I'd assume that short of computer error, they would never intentionally open a aperture near a star willingly.
I once saw this documentary a couple of years ago (I think it was on Netflix?) on the concept of "infinity", where they started with a triangle, with three sides and three corners. Then a square with 4 & 4, then a pentagon with 5 & 5 and so on. They kept adding to the polygon until they reached an infinite number of sides and corners - eventually depicting a circle with one side and zero corners, mathematically proving (allegedly) that ∞ = 1 = 0 all at the same time.
That shit blew my mind. Never saw it described in that way before...
That partly relies on navigation.
Given that humans in Trek likely had good data of where stars in the Milky Way might be from deep space telemetry (even dating back to the 20th century), it would be relatively simple matter for computers to extrapolate most likely/probable paths of most stars in the said galaxy... obviously conditions wouldn't be the same in real time, but extrapolations would likely be accurate enough to allow a course to be programmed that will in real life won't deposit you anywhere near a star or MOST stellar bodies regardless of how fast you go.
Like I said, Warp is a type of FLT that still allows interaction with real space, so its affected by large enough gravitational wells.
Anything faster than Warp likely allows a ship to tap into deeper subspace domains that actually push the ship more out of phase with the universe - which is why Borg TW and QS would be great.
In the case of Warp 10, this 'push' likely happens on a more extreme level, allowing a vessel and its pilot/crew to occupy the entire universe at the same time without the risk of smashing into anything or causing the entire universe to explode (or implode?)... but not far enough to prevent anything from the universe that resonates on a similar frequency and state of being to affect the crew in transit (unless you can specifically isolate that effect - that still drastically reduces the proverbial 'stack' when searching for that elusive needle - but that means UFP would have to drastically expand its search parameters into the unknown if they want to travel at Infinite Velocity reliably).
There is no reason to think that traveling at Warp 10 puts you out of phase. Your little bubble of subspace will still crash into anything in real space it doesn’t deflect out of the way, tearing it (and you) up. I’d be fine with them establishing something in canon stating that it does have the effect you’re describing, but they haven’t. The Romulan’s phase cloak has, so far as we know, nothing to do with either warp drive or infinite speed.
Look, I have to grant that in-universe, Warp 10 doesn’t crash you into things, because it didn’t. But it makes no sense.
Yeah, but in Trek universe, subspace exists.
In ours, it doesn't. Subspace is kinda the 'foundation' for most freaky stuff we've been seeing... so, in-universe (Trek-wise), its a decent explanation as any that Warp 10 DOES in fact places you out of phase (or operates on similar principles which allows you to occupy every point in the universe at the same time - essentially, a different state of being).
Then why doesn’t any other warp speed do the same, since that also involves subspace?
Because Warp only uses subspace field effects to achieve FTL but doesn't move the entire ship from interacting from the universe (as I explained before).
This is why strong enough gravity fields like stars or planets can disrupt it.
The further along the Warp curve you go (and the closer you get to the Warp 10 threshold - aka, past 9.9 for example), the vessel is likely more and more pushed out of phase with the rest of the universe - or the effects are still minimal for Warp until you hit Warp 10 (infinite velocity - at which point, to occupy every point in the universe, you kinda HAVE to transition to a different state of being - mostly out of phase with the rest of the universe).
Yes, you “explained” this before — a decent fan theory, but one with no onscreen support. It’s all very nice, but you’re making it up. And I have no problem with made-up fan theories — in fact, I love them, and enjoy coming up with and presenting them myself, a lot — but I do have a problem with presenting them as factual, with the presenter here to “explain” as some kind of would-be authority — as opposed to a fan making things up for fun.
I don’t think either of us is going to convince the other here, so it’s probably best that we stop this here.
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Seems to me like setting Warp 100 as the uppermost limit would have made just as much intuitive sense.
But then, they could never figure out how big the exploratory zones were. Or whether the galaxy's edge was routinely reachable.
You're speaking Greek to me! Please use Parsecs as the units for velocity so that I can make some sense of the conversation.
Inevitably, someone would write an episode in which a ship can go warp 100.1 or warp 507. I wouldn't be surprised even if a ship was said to be capable of "infinite velocity," someone would later add "infinite velocity+1." They can't help themselves.
You do know that Parsecs are units of length, right?
And this is why you need technical lore staff to put the Kibosh on silly thinks like "Infinite Velocity"
The “parsecs” thing is a joke.
Han Solo used “parsecs” incorrectly in ANH. It has stuck in the fandom’s craw ever since it first appeared in theaters. They actually tried to explain it in the Solo movie as kind of an in-joke situation.
Do try to keep up, please.
Han Solo used “parsecs” incorrectly in ANH. It has stuck in the fandom’s craw ever since it first appeared in theaters. They actually tried to explain it in the Solo movie as kind of an in-joke situation.
Do try to keep up, please.
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