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Spoilers Walking Dead Season 8 discussion and spoilers.

I understand where you're coming from but i wonder if you dislike the concept of cliffhangers in general?
That's what I never understood about the whole Negan cliffhanger, is this any different than any other cliffhanger? I don't understand what upset people so much more about this one than others. I wonder if it's just because people knew what happened in the comic book so there was an undue anticipation because the stakes were anticipated? Like, BOBW you had a pretty good sense that Picard would somehow be saved despite the peril.
 
This past episode was all over the place. Very confusing as to what is going on. I'm tired of Tv shows using flashbacks/flash forwards haphazardly.

Why didn't Rick just shoot Negan when he was standing out in the open? If Daryl and his crew lead away most of the Saviors army why didn't Rick and crew finish Negan off?
 
This past episode was all over the place. Very confusing as to what is going on. I'm tired of Tv shows using flashbacks/flash forwards haphazardly.

Why didn't Rick just shoot Negan when he was standing out in the open? If Daryl and his crew lead away most of the Saviors army why didn't Rick and crew finish Negan off?

It was pretty damn ridiculous and borderline insulting to intelligence that none of these characters who have repeatedly been shown as incredible shots against moving targets could not hit Negan from that distance.

Maybe they should have had Carol there since she hit a propane tank with a flare gun from like 3 or 4 times further distance? Or maybe had Daryl there since he shot Dwight's bike tire with his crossbow from further away earlier in the episode.
 
This past episode was all over the place. Very confusing as to what is going on. I'm tired of Tv shows using flashbacks/flash forwards haphazardly.

Why didn't Rick just shoot Negan when he was standing out in the open? If Daryl and his crew lead away most of the Saviors army why didn't Rick and crew finish Negan off?
Rick must still preserve "hero status" and say his piece before the bullets fly. To his credit, he didn't wait until he got down to zero before he started firing. :lol: He wasn't ever that great of a shot to begin with. Sasha had become the crew's master sniper and she's...well... Daryl is a good shot with the crossbow, but he had another task to perform. Maybe not the greatest distribution of resources, but still sent a solid message to Negan, who did find a relatively good hiding spot to provide cover from incoming fire.

I was concerned that the Saviors would whip out the old RPG and start doing some real damage on the vehicles. I believe they should still have 2 rockets left.

If Rick's crew wants to get really serious, all it really takes is someone with a flame thrower. They're somewhat easy to make if they can't find one in a WWII museum. It would be the best device against the walkers in general, and while hiding behind the armored vehicles (making it difficult for someone to aim at the tanks), would become a formidable psychological weapon on its own without having to fire a single slug. As it stands, they killed a lot of glass and wasted a lot of ammo. Cinematically impressive (and again, delivers a solid message), but impractical from a strategic POV.

And yes, if I were Rick, I would have personally put a round through Negan's head before I even started talking. "Do I have you fucker's attention NOW?!?" :lol: They just need to keep the big baddy going through at least the end of this season.

And the old-man Rick flash-forward's...not sure what to think about that. Was he daydreaming, like he did (Sunday dinner) right after Glenn bought the farm, about an impossible future? It always seemed to coincide with his weepy red-eyed close-up. Perhaps they won the war but at a tremendously Pyric cost. Definitely a noodle-scratcher.
 
Rick must still preserve "hero status" and say his piece before the bullets fly. To his credit, he didn't wait until he got down to zero before he started firing. :lol: He wasn't ever that great of a shot to begin with. Sasha had become the crew's master sniper and she's...well... Daryl is a good shot with the crossbow, but he had another task to perform. Maybe not the greatest distribution of resources, but still sent a solid message to Negan, who did find a relatively good hiding spot to provide cover from incoming fire.

I was concerned that the Saviors would whip out the old RPG and start doing some real damage on the vehicles. I believe they should still have 2 rockets left.

If Rick's crew wants to get really serious, all it really takes is someone with a flame thrower. They're somewhat easy to make if they can't find one in a WWII museum. It would be the best device against the walkers in general, and while hiding behind the armored vehicles (making it difficult for someone to aim at the tanks), would become a formidable psychological weapon on its own without having to fire a single slug. As it stands, they killed a lot of glass and wasted a lot of ammo. Cinematically impressive (and again, delivers a solid message), but impractical from a strategic POV.

And yes, if I were Rick, I would have personally put a round through Negan's head before I even started talking. "Do I have you fucker's attention NOW?!?" :lol: They just need to keep the big baddy going through at least the end of this season.

And the old-man Rick flash-forward's...not sure what to think about that. Was he daydreaming, like he did (Sunday dinner) right after Glenn bought the farm, about an impossible future? It always seemed to coincide with his weepy red-eyed close-up. Perhaps they won the war but at a tremendously Pyric cost. Definitely a noodle-scratcher.

I wasn't going to bring it up but since you mentioned military weapons...they would be lying around everywhere. Presumably with the military deployed to stop the walkers and then wiped out there would be military grade hardware everywhere. This country has produced an amazing ton of military equipment (look at our military budget).

So getting a hold of an MRAP, gernades and some machine guns probably wouldn't be that hard. Not to mention mortars, tanks and howitzers etc if they wanted to go over the top. Now I know most of you are like "but they don't know how to operate that stuff" but it's most weapons are made incredibly easy to use for the average grunt. Find one ex-army person like Abraham (if he was alive) or a field manual and this battle would be insane (and over quick).

But it's TV and Rick starting the new Alexandria militia is not what this show is about and the show would take on a different tone. So this is what we get. If we think too closely on it, the whole thing falls apart.
 
Yep - there were literally multiple streets in Atlanta that were littered with fully-functional Abrams MBT's. DC probably has a whole slew of those things buried down in a bunker somewhere along with fleets of Bradley FV's and other mechanized infantry support vehicles. Plow a couple of those through Negan's front gate and the Saviors wouldn't last five minutes.
 
I understand where you're coming from but i wonder if you dislike the concept of cliffhangers in general?

I understand that cliffhangers are a staple for soap operas for decades but the first one that mattered to me was back then in the original run of Star Trek Next Generation in season 3 with Best of Both Worlds (yes, i am that old :D ) My buddy and me nearly fell out of our chairs when we saw it and it was a discussion topic for the entire summer. We were also on a complete news embargo since back then there was no internet or Youtube where new pieces of information were posted instantly.
There was no possibilty for a Game of Thrones /Jon Snow was killed type of leak when the actor was spotted on Game of Thrones sets after his character was supposed to be dead.

Anyway.. personally i liked the cliffhanger and the suspense and had built my own theories on who would be killed. Glenn was a strong candidate since he was also killed in the comics in the same way and in the same situation and i thought it would have been a ballsy move on the side of the producers to follow the comics because Glenn / Steven Yeun was a fan favorite character (myself included) and it would have been one hell of a blow to fandom and the show to lose him.

So when the waiting was finally over and they killed off Abraham (not as much of a fan favorite but still a cool character and actor) i thought they played it safe like so many other shows who would put main characters on the chopping block in a season cliffhanger only to have them resuced at the last second when the show resumed airing.

So i liked what they did as brutal and heart wrenching as it was because it raised the stakes considerably and introduced or solidified Negan as one of the top villains of the show (if not the best) and while it was unlikely they'd kill off any more of the core group that season you couldn't be sure and that led to an interesting experience during the show.

I wonder now why you would be ok if they killed off Abraham in the season finale and in the season premiere performed the twist and killed Glenn.. why does it matter if there were a few months in between? The result is the same and the shock would be the same. Sure i would have liked for Glenn to survive and continue his story with Maggie and i was pissed and sad at the same time for a while but this elevated Negan to become truly entertaining to watch as he kept the viewers on their toes all the time (this is why i love to watch Walking Dead reaction videos and it seems people are really invested in it because if this. When Glenn was killed there were several mental breakdowns and buckets of tears to be shed.. look around for any other show that is capable of doing that with its viewers).

I'd also disagree that it would be a good thing to do what the fans would like, if they did that they'd kill off an inconsequential supporting character (like Abraham), people would discuss it for a week or two and then settle into the new season and watch it all play out back and forth. This way everytime someone pissed off Negan or gave him lip you didn't know what would happen and that was exciting (at least to me). Otherwise the show would lose appeal fast if you knew that main characters would be safe from everything which would reduce the show to the hundreds of others that put the main characters in jeopardy yet pull them out time and time again.

This is also one of the main reasons why Game of Thrones is so popular. people lost it when Sean Bean was beheaded in the first season and really lost it when the Red Wedding happened.. nobody liked to see Bean die (again ;) ) and the other Starks were also very well liked as they were the beacons of good in a show that was full of shady or downright evil characters.

I love a good cliffhanger but I don't really think this was a cliffhanger that delivered. I see your points, but it's just not how I felt. I felt like the season was a waste because there was no payoff, in any form, at the end. The producers made every possible point to tell fans that Negan was coming and that thing that happens in the comics would be happening in the show, in one form or another. Yeah it was my fault for reading about it, sure, but wouldn't it be expected that a good amount of fans would at least hear about that too? We knew Negan was coming; we knew he was going to kill somone... so, what was it that the finale actually gave us that we didn't already have? If I had no idea what was happening when Negan showed up then, yes, 100% wow, that would have been great. It would have been like watching Mr. Burns get shot or seeing Locutus of Borg for the first time.

Instead, they spent the season dancing around the question of whether or not Glenn would be killed. They already did one fake out with him, and then built up this question of 'Will it be Glenn?' for said season. I feel like there was no payoff for the season as a whole and it was all just setup for the next premiere, and that was a problem for me. That was where I felt like my time was wasted, and that's why I felt like I got jerked around. Now, I am one who loved Abraham, so let's say he gets axed in the finale. That's still a cliffhanger for me because there's no resolution to that, and it still has the question of 'what next??' in the air. We get to see that Glenn made it and that we were afraid of nothing. Then, to kill Glenn at the premiere would have really dug the nail in the coffin that Negan was THE bad guy of bad guys.

And that finale did in fact lead a lot of people to talk about who must have died. A LOT of people. So many, and so much, that eventually it became pretty logical that it was either going to be Glenn or Abraham. The plot armor on everyone else was too strong in that they were either not important enough to die, or too important to die that it would completely alter the show. So by the time Abraham dies, it's not so much as a surprise anymore, which I will admit made Glenn dying still a big shock, but we were already talking about how it was equally possible that Glenn would be dying all summer as well, which took away some of impact for me. I feel like spreading those two deaths apart by the break would have made both deaths much more shocking and resonate better. No one would have seen Glenn dying in the premiere if they had killed Abraham first, because that question wouldn't have been floating around. I imagine how shocked I would have been had I not been wondering if Glenn was going to die all summer.

I see the Negan cliffhanger as: What if in the Best of Both Worlds, the finale ended with Picard being captured and him in the shadows on the viewscreen when the Borg hail them, but you never see his face and you never hear him talk and it leaves you to wonder all summer, 'Did Picard get assimilated???', and you never even get Riker saying, 'FIRE.'

And so that was how TWD hurt me, but not in the way I had always loved TWD hurting me, and everything after these episodes just didn't feel great anymore.

Anyway, I caught the premiere yesterday! It was actually damn straight entertaining even though it was doing typical annoying TWD stuff. All of a sudden, everyone has bad aim and Negan is apparently has a portable force field around him at all times.
 
So I googled it and of course their is some information on the internet about driving a tank.

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Sure, driving an actual tank won't be easy but it is doable with some practice. Shooting the tank with no instructor might be another matter. But a armored personnel carrier is much easier to drive. Pretty much like driving a truck.

Also, a bulldozer or other heavy machinery would make good rams for assaulting Neegan's fort. Anyway, glad to see Rick and crew were at least smart enough to armor up the RV.

My point is I felt that Rick and crew could have finished Neegan off in that battle with a slight change to the plan. And ultimately, they only need to kill Neegan. He is the cult of personality leading the Saviors and once he is dead they will be much easier to defeat if they don'r up and surrender right away.

But the writers can't make it too easy or there would be no show. I just like to think of what I would do in the situation.
 
I didn't get the feeling that the season spent time on leading up to Glenn's death.. heck, they barely met Negan when he went all Lucille on Abraham and Glenn, he didn't even know that Glenn was married to Maggie because he sure would have spared Glenn then to get some psychological terror in. For Negan Glenn was just one of Rick's group and he was chosen at random.

I think people talking about who will die has more to do with the comics and that the show follows them quite well (though with some deviations for practical purposes) so people got afraid that it would be Glenn because it would have this monstrous impact in the viewers and this is because i thought it was actually brilliant to kill off a secondary character who was cool but ultimately brought little to the show anymore other than cool one liners and being one of the big hitters when it came to combat.

You say it was a setup for the next season but isn't that the purpose of any cliffhanger (be it at episode or season end)? To engage the viewer and have him come back after a few months and resume watching because they want to see how it continues and if their theory turns out right?

The minutae of how it went down are not important to me at all.. they could have made a close up shot of Lucille coming down, a loud sound of hitting a head and then fade to black.. would have been the same thing. just done differently. Killing Glenn in the seasin finale might be a huge shocker but what would you give the viewers then as cliffhanger to tide them over after such a monumental event? It is the very nature of the cliffhanger to keep the people guessing how it will be resolved.

If we take BobW again as an example the great shock was to see Picard as a Borg and then to fade out just as Riker gives the command to fire.. that's one way to go at it because the people don't know if the Enterprise can stand up to a ship that just wiped out a whole Federation fleet (but in the back of our minds we knew that somehow she would because at that time we were not used to such brutal and consequential storytelling like Game of Thrones).

So.. the season start.

I'm kinda mixed about it.. i didn't expect this to turn into a Michael Bay style slugfest but was still underwhelmed, not so much by the non-linear storytelling at times but that it kinda felt dragging as a setup episode. It was quite subdued and i expected something bigger.

Also, and it's been mentioned upthread, please stop making such ridiculous scenes of Negan and his command crew standing freely in the open for minutes and have them posturing while his enemies are 10 yards away in heavy cover and armed to the teeth.

That really bugs me in any show because even with plot armor and everything else it's a monumentally stupid thing to do when you're at war and it's also stupid by the Alexandrians not to open up completely and eliminate the entire enemy command structure then and there and follow up with the zombie herd plan to box the rest in until they either give up or starve to death.

It's just insulting to me as the viewers when characters act that obviously stupid and then escape when it finally dawns on the enemy that they have a chance here.

Ok, it's a setup episode. I hope the next few ones reveal a bit more and turn up the heat.. season 7 was mostly buildup towards All Out War (and many people were dissatisfied with season 7) so it would be a shame if the show lost its bearing again.

So I googled it and of course their is some information on the internet about driving a tank.

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Sure, driving an actual tank won't be easy but it is doable with some practice. Shooting the tank with no instructor might be another matter. But a armored personnel carrier is much easier to drive. Pretty much like driving a truck.

Also, a bulldozer or other heavy machinery would make good rams for assaulting Neegan's fort. Anyway, glad to see Rick and crew were at least smart enough to armor up the RV.

My point is I felt that Rick and crew could have finished Neegan off in that battle with a slight change to the plan. And ultimately, they only need to kill Neegan. He is the cult of personality leading the Saviors and once he is dead they will be much easier to defeat if they don'r up and surrender right away.

But the writers can't make it too easy or there would be no show. I just like to think of what I would do in the situation.

By the time where this show is now (3-4 years after the Zombie apocalypse? More?), all military vehicles need major maintenance to be properly activated. Parts corrode, pipes and tubes become porous over time and need checking and replacement, fluids need to be refilled (leave your car for 3 years not running and then just switch the key.. see what happens to the engine then).

Looting small and medium arms sure but i believe people living near bases might have gotten the same idea way before and grabbed everything of value long ago if they didn't take over the base at all and hole up in the midst of a crapload guns and supplies.

Also using heavry artillery and such if you are not familiar with it.. no thanks. That's too much volatile explosive power and no training to handle it, that's like inviting the Darwin Award to your place to have a good laugh.
 
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"ONLY ONE MAN HAS TO DIE. AND THAT MAN IS NEGAN!" - Rick Grimes (Then kills everybody EXCEPT for Negan :lol: )

The episode wasn't bad. It wasn't that great, either. I'm glad to see all the boring looking scenes from the season 8 trailer were shown in this episode, and not spread out over the season. No real stupid decision making going on here either, except for not using a sniper rifle to take out Negan from afar while Rick kept him engaged in their dick-measuring contest.

I'll be back next week, for now.
 
@FPAlpha well all the vehicles would have that issue. Gas and diesel only stay good for so long. They wouldn't be driving much anywhere.

Granted I am ex-military so use of heavy duty firepower doesn't intimidate me as much but you would be surprised at how easy it is to use. again, they don't need a tank, a armored vehicle (MRAP) drives just like a car (if we live in this fictional universe where gas/diesel hasn't all gone bad). Hell, they are automatic transmission so you don't even need to drive a stick.

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This would be my go-to post apocalyptic survival vehicle. It's certainly easy enough to drive to smash down the Saviors gate. And there are a ton of military bases around Alexandria/ Washington DC. And as someone pointed out, there were military vehicle all over Atlanta abandoned by the over run army. Any population center would have a ton of military hardware lying about.

The US military is so over funded that there would be no shortage of weapons. They estimate there are more guns than people in the US. With 95% of people dead they would be swimming in guns and ammo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

But the episode isn't too bad. It's just Hollywood writers have little real world experience and don't think of all this stuff (I guess). I on the other hand have a boring job so i think of it all the time. :biggrin:
 
Granted I am ex-military so use of heavy duty firepower doesn't intimidate me as much but you would be surprised at how easy it is to use.
I used to have a friend who was prior-service Army. I think her MOS was in Signals - basically whoever handles the user manuals for large and small arms - she was a graphics artist in the publications office back in the 80's and had a hand in working on them. I remember one time she told me that all manuals had to be written as if to be read at a 3rd grade level. Maybe that's changed over time, but I could see where they would want to make something as simple as possible to use and maintain, not just because of an assumption over educational acuity (which was apparently a thing back then), but also you don't want to be thinking hard about how to do something, particularly when you're embroiled in a potentially life-or-death tactical engagement - "Where are the LOAD & FIRE buttons dammit!?!?".
 
It was pretty damn ridiculous and borderline insulting to intelligence that none of these characters who have repeatedly been shown as incredible shots against moving targets could not hit Negan from that distance.

Because its a running storyline, and no one kills the villain right out of the gates. That would end the "All Out War" arc pretty quickly. It the reason that the final duel in The Force Awakens did not have Rey hack Kylo Ren to pieces the very second he fell, using that advantage of getting rid of the Big Bad (who just happened to murder Han Solo in front of her eyes) right on the spot. More story to tell.

Maybe they should have had Carol there since she hit a propane tank with a flare gun from like 3 or 4 times further distance?

Carol shot the tank with a rifle, using a scope for accuracy.

Rick must still preserve "hero status" and say his piece before the bullets fly. To his credit, he didn't wait until he got down to zero before he started firing. :lol: He wasn't ever that great of a shot to begin with. Sasha had become the crew's master sniper and she's...well... Daryl is a good shot with the crossbow, but he had another task to perform. Maybe not the greatest distribution of resources, but still sent a solid message to Negan, who did find a relatively good hiding spot to provide cover from incoming fire.

...and that's the point; Rick cannot be the best at everything. In fact, for the series lead/protagonist, he's been on the receiving end of beatings often, and has never been set up to be a great marksman. That skill fell to Andrea, Sasha and Shane to a point.

I was concerned that the Saviors would whip out the old RPG and start doing some real damage on the vehicles. I believe they should still have 2 rockets left.

I believe they were not in position, and were likely caught off guard. If Rick's gang located the sanctuary, then one would also assume they had people positioned in several areas in the general area (they did) which means running the risk of being picked off if they dared to come out firing.

As it stands, they killed a lot of glass and wasted a lot of ammo. Cinematically impressive (and again, delivers a solid message), but impractical from a strategic POV.

That was taken from the comics--and was used to attract the walker herd to the area, which was a large part of the plan.

And the old-man Rick flash-forward's...not sure what to think about that. Was he daydreaming, like he did (Sunday dinner) right after Glenn bought the farm, about an impossible future? It always seemed to coincide with his weepy red-eyed close-up. Perhaps they won the war but at a tremendously Pyric cost. Definitely a noodle-scratcher.

Bet on the "victory" to come at a cost. I'm not certain about which characters face something rather grave, but before Negan is said and done, rumor has it that some horrible things await Rick's group, which (in theory) should make the combined losses of Hershel, Beth, Glenn & Abraham pale in comparison. We will have to see about that, since some previous WD casualties were among the most dramatic moments in series history
 
-Show, stop with the artsy shit. You're terrible at it.

-There's absolutely zero fucking good reason why they didn't just simply shoot Negan (and Gregory) right there on the spot.

-Not one but two callbacks to the pilot here, the scene with Korl looking for gas mirroring the opening scene of the pilot, and also the overhead shot of the trailer mirroring the pilot's ending shot of the overhead view of the tank.
 
Maybe they should have had Carol there since she hit a propane tank with a flare gun from like 3 or 4 times further distance? Or maybe had Daryl there since he shot Dwight's bike tire with his crossbow from further away earlier in the episode.

It was vastly more impressive, and ridiculous, than that. She hit the tank with a BOTTLE ROCKET!


I thought the episode was good, and as much as I like Nicotero's directing I'm tired of non-linear episodes when it comes to the sequence of events. Once in a while it can be interesting and impactful but it seems like every episode he does any more has to have present-day events intercut with events that happened in the past or will happen in the future/dream sequence.

And, sheesh, in the present-day parts it seems like Judith ages 6 months each time we see her! How do we know the "future" isn't a couple weeks from now when Judith has aged to a grade schooler? At the end of last season she looked to still be around 2 here when she's playing in the street she looks nearly 4!
 
^Agreed, Negan and his senior staff were unarmed and exposed in broad daylight, 20 yards away from a few dozen well-armed members of Rick's militia. Logically, that was the perfect moment to end the Saviours once and for all, but since we have seven more episodes to fill, let's posture and speechify for five minutes first, then launch an attack where we hit everything in sight except for the intended targets...
 
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^Agreed, Negan and his senior staff were unarmed and exposed in broad daylight, 20 yards away from a few dozen well-armed members of Rick's militia. Logically, that was the perfect moment to end the Saviours once and for all, but since we have seven more episodes to fill, let's posture and speechify for five minutes first, then launch an attack where we hit everything in sight except for the intended targets...

Did you really want a 5-minute season?
 
I've been debating if I want to watch last season and the new one, so I was wondering, what is the overall opinion on Season 7? I actually started to watch the premiere on Netflix this morning, but then changed my mind. I know I heard a lot of bad things about the premiere, but I'm not sure how things went after that.
 
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