Rewatching Voyager I'm uncertain who the 3rd and 4th Officer is. We have Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok but is it Rollins next? It was established that he was Paris superior Officer so is it Paris after him, Torres who was 2 days outranked by her husband, then Kim
Voyager's Rank Structure
- Thread starter ThatsMrCaptaintoyou
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There's also the fact that a higher rank doesn't necessarily mean you have a higher position. Take Data... a Lt. Cmdr. who was Second Officer, but Troi ended up outranking him. Same with Beverly. (In that case, it's more an apples to oranges comparison since there are scenarios where the CMO would have the final say on things.) Another example of rank not having the same meaning as position is in "TWISTED" and "THE HAUNTING OF DECK TWELVE", Kim is ordering people (Lt. Baxter in the former, Mess Hall full of people in the latter) to their duty stations.
Back to VOYAGER, I can't believe I'm going to reference this horrible episode...
"UNIMATRIX ZERO, PART II" has Tom tell Chakotay that he was acting XO while he was making a suggestion in the ready room.
While Rollins may have outranked Paris, we don't know what his position was, and we never see him again after the pilot and was referenced only in "DREADNOUGHT". He could have been killed for all we know.
It was clearly Tuvok after Chakotay, and I'm thinking it was Paris after Tuvok. Mainly due to the fact they are bridge officers.
TOS gives us precedent for this, too. There have been times when Sulu was in command even though Scotty was right there. (Scotty was actually like Data... every time he was in a command situation, he was flawless.) I think since engineering is such a major department, it's hard to split focus between that and bridge command at the same time. Also, something about the chief engineer not being a line officer is a reason. (I'm not entirely sure what that term means, as I have never served. But it sounds like a form of chain of command.) I don't think it's a coincidence that TOS and ENT are the only shows where we see the chief engineer (Scotty and Trip) in command on the bridge. Maybe in the 22nd and 23rd centuries, Starfleet had their chief engineers act as third in command, but change that in the 24th century.
This actually makes sense, as the bridge is where we see all the stuff happen.
Back to VOYAGER, I can't believe I'm going to reference this horrible episode...
"UNIMATRIX ZERO, PART II" has Tom tell Chakotay that he was acting XO while he was making a suggestion in the ready room.
While Rollins may have outranked Paris, we don't know what his position was, and we never see him again after the pilot and was referenced only in "DREADNOUGHT". He could have been killed for all we know.
It was clearly Tuvok after Chakotay, and I'm thinking it was Paris after Tuvok. Mainly due to the fact they are bridge officers.
TOS gives us precedent for this, too. There have been times when Sulu was in command even though Scotty was right there. (Scotty was actually like Data... every time he was in a command situation, he was flawless.) I think since engineering is such a major department, it's hard to split focus between that and bridge command at the same time. Also, something about the chief engineer not being a line officer is a reason. (I'm not entirely sure what that term means, as I have never served. But it sounds like a form of chain of command.) I don't think it's a coincidence that TOS and ENT are the only shows where we see the chief engineer (Scotty and Trip) in command on the bridge. Maybe in the 22nd and 23rd centuries, Starfleet had their chief engineers act as third in command, but change that in the 24th century.
This actually makes sense, as the bridge is where we see all the stuff happen.
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In Arsenal of Fredom Picard specifically left Bridge Officer LaForge in charge of the Bridge. That's fine when you're just station keeping. When it all hit the fan the Chief Engineer phoned up, said he was coming to the Bridge, and that journey took long enough for La Forge to make a supplemental ships log about it
That conversation then confirms that who is in command of the ship is not always rank related. La Forge indicated that even Data wouldn't be able to relieve him (although that was probably hyperbole -- he didn't mention another ship arriving and their XO taking command either).
At the time La Forge was a JG Lieutenant, there would have been dozens if not hundreds of full blown lieutenants, not to mention a fair number of lt cdrs on board.
In Disaster, Lieutenant JG Monroe was in charge even though Lt Cdr Troi outranked him by 2 ranks, Picard hadn't explicitly left her in charge, there was obviously some implicitly understood structure separate to rank levels, a structure that doesn't stretch down to Ensigns or Non-Coms.
It's also understood that Lt Cdr Data is in charge when Riker and Picard aren't available even if Cdr Crusher is available and is perfectly capable of running the ship.
I can't make sense of the rank structure presented in the entire franchise, starting with TOS.
This is actually consistent with current US Naval Regulations. If you are placed in command of a vessel, regardless of rank, you cannot be relieved save for by the person who put you in that position, or someone higher up their reporting chain.
Rank is not the only thing that applies to seniority, at least in the Navy. It's also matter of type of officer, e.g. restricted line officer, unrestricted, and staff officer. Each of those have very different levels of freedom to be placed in command of a unit, or a ship. While I doubt that Starfleet has these regulations exactly the same it probably is closer that we realize.
Hmmm...
TOS in the movie era got a little screwy at the end, since most of the crew were command level, but were performing the duties of lower ranking officers so they could stay together.
TNG seemed OK, mostly. Given that Data was second officer, and there were LCDR's all over the ship, and that Beverly and Troi were commanders, AND because he just
ing deserved it... yeah, he should have had full commander rank.
DS9 would have made more sense if O'Brien had held an officer's rank, like he did on TNG. He was supposedly in charge of the whole engineering crew, but even an ensign outranked him. The officers were just fine, within the usual Starfleet rule that a person can rank up without reassignment.
VOY... yeah, a mess. There were several lieutenants (Ayala, Carey, Durst, among others) who weren't considered senior staff, and an ensign who was.
Since senior staff meetings on Enterprise seemed to be Archer, T'Pol, and Trip... no problems there. While I think Hoshi and especially Travis rated promotion, it doesn't look like 2150's Starfleet used "hollow pip" ranks, so it's possible that ensign rank there constituted LTJG as well. And as for TATV, my head canon is that Riker's holosimulation was not historically accurate.
LD, the big problem is Boimler. In general, if you need to reassign a JG, you find him a JG's post, rather than reduce him to ensign. Mariner's rank makes sense given her service record... Tendi and Rutherford seem to be good officers, so with three years on their belts, it's debatable whether they should still be ensigns, and I expect it's going to get worse.
I didn't watch enough DIS to know what rank everyone was, and PIC didn't really use them much. SNW is still new. And as for PRO, the only question is why a VADM is doing a captain's job.
TOS in the movie era got a little screwy at the end, since most of the crew were command level, but were performing the duties of lower ranking officers so they could stay together.
TNG seemed OK, mostly. Given that Data was second officer, and there were LCDR's all over the ship, and that Beverly and Troi were commanders, AND because he just
ing deserved it... yeah, he should have had full commander rank.DS9 would have made more sense if O'Brien had held an officer's rank, like he did on TNG. He was supposedly in charge of the whole engineering crew, but even an ensign outranked him. The officers were just fine, within the usual Starfleet rule that a person can rank up without reassignment.
VOY... yeah, a mess. There were several lieutenants (Ayala, Carey, Durst, among others) who weren't considered senior staff, and an ensign who was.
Since senior staff meetings on Enterprise seemed to be Archer, T'Pol, and Trip... no problems there. While I think Hoshi and especially Travis rated promotion, it doesn't look like 2150's Starfleet used "hollow pip" ranks, so it's possible that ensign rank there constituted LTJG as well. And as for TATV, my head canon is that Riker's holosimulation was not historically accurate.
LD, the big problem is Boimler. In general, if you need to reassign a JG, you find him a JG's post, rather than reduce him to ensign. Mariner's rank makes sense given her service record... Tendi and Rutherford seem to be good officers, so with three years on their belts, it's debatable whether they should still be ensigns, and I expect it's going to get worse.
I didn't watch enough DIS to know what rank everyone was, and PIC didn't really use them much. SNW is still new. And as for PRO, the only question is why a VADM is doing a captain's job.
Regarding O'Brien, given his lengthy service and wide experience, it's clear he was valued. He stayed an enlisted man because he didn't want to have to attend formal functions. ("PAST TENSE, PART I")
O'Brien was certainly happier as an engineer, and the ones who were officers under him probably figured the experience under him would be a good step in their career. Work under O'Brien for a year or two, take a promotion opportunity if it arises, and continue on that course until they hit whatever goal they want, whether it's command or becoming chief engineer of a ship.
Of course, given how O'Brien is, I imagine a vast majority of his engineers probably stick with him because he's a good boss. Best example of his leadership is in "STARSHIP DOWN" when he gives Worf command advice.
Regarding Admiral Janeway on PRODIGY, we've seen this before... Kirk in TMP. In the case of Janeway, it's very possible the Protostar was a project that was directly under her command. And given her personality, I can totally see her strongarming other admirals to give her a ship to look for Chakotay.
O'Brien was certainly happier as an engineer, and the ones who were officers under him probably figured the experience under him would be a good step in their career. Work under O'Brien for a year or two, take a promotion opportunity if it arises, and continue on that course until they hit whatever goal they want, whether it's command or becoming chief engineer of a ship.
Of course, given how O'Brien is, I imagine a vast majority of his engineers probably stick with him because he's a good boss. Best example of his leadership is in "STARSHIP DOWN" when he gives Worf command advice.
Regarding Admiral Janeway on PRODIGY, we've seen this before... Kirk in TMP. In the case of Janeway, it's very possible the Protostar was a project that was directly under her command. And given her personality, I can totally see her strongarming other admirals to give her a ship to look for Chakotay.
Kim took command of Voyager more so than Paris or Torres who did it for about 45 seconds combined
Which reinforces the point.
Pretty sure Paris is after Tuvok. I'm not sure they would need to specify after that point, but if it came to it probably the other senior officers starting with Harry as he's a bridge officer.
I know Paris was left in command in "INITIATIONS" while Janeway and Tuvok beamed down to rescue Chakotay. I don't think he was in command any other time.
Torres... I don't think she was ever left in command.
Torres... I don't think she was ever left in command.
Neither was Geordi, once he became chief engineer.
That's true. In the "Gambit" two-parter, Geordi could have been the XO. But Worf was. This also supports my idea that Starfleet stopped having Chief Engineers as being in the direct line of command.
I completely forgot about "TSUNKATSE".
You are right. While Chakotay, Paris, and Kim were on the surface, Janeway on the Delta Flyer on a survey, and Tuvok kidnapped with Seven, Torres was the last senior officer left on Voyager.
You are right. While Chakotay, Paris, and Kim were on the surface, Janeway on the Delta Flyer on a survey, and Tuvok kidnapped with Seven, Torres was the last senior officer left on Voyager.
Just for fun I asked GPT who was left in charge of the bridge in TNG. It's very confident, and very wrong.
I can't find any site that summarises who's in the centre chair (rather than looking from chakoteya transcripts for variations on "you have the bridge")
I can't find any site that summarises who's in the centre chair (rather than looking from chakoteya transcripts for variations on "you have the bridge")
Not in command, but he was acting first officer in Unimatrix Zero when Chakotay was in command while Janeway and Tuvok were on the away mission.
I think VOY’s ranking is as followed:
Janeway
Chakotay
Tuvok
Doctor
Torres
Paris (demoted and them promoted)
Kim
Seven (Janeway made it clear that Harry Kim outranked her)
Its just a matter of figuring out where Kes and Neelix fit.
Janeway
Chakotay
Tuvok
Doctor
Torres
Paris (demoted and them promoted)
Kim
Seven (Janeway made it clear that Harry Kim outranked her)
Its just a matter of figuring out where Kes and Neelix fit.
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