Voyager season 4

[Farscape One]

I think "NEMESIS" is a very underrated episode. One of my favorite aspects is the use of the Vori language. It reminded me somewhat of how the Tamarians communicated in TNG's "Darmok".

I wonder if Joe Menosky helped Kenneth Biller with the Vori language...

 

[cosmic mouse]

The Hirogen are modeled after predator. Their ships and technology is ancient, but there are Hirogen engineers. We meet two of them.

Ah, yes, I can see this in the bounty hunter aspect and somewhat in their appearance. Predator kicked some major ass! (anyone who can kick Arnold's butt, or nearly so, has some major stones!)...

 

[cosmic mouse]

The Hirogens are by far my favourite villains on Star Trek so enjoy every episode with them. I wish we'd seen them more often although they will be present throughout the rest of the show - just like the Borg although the Hirogens won't be used as often as the Borg. THE KILLING GAME totally rocks in my book - and also note Janeway and Tuvok (and all the others) out of uniform. They all are a delight to look at. The story is interesting ... and it'll have a sequel to it in the last season.

As for Tuvok and Seven, they are always enjoyable together - but then who isn't on VOY? All of them are exciting for me. I also find it interesting you didn't care much for the letters - I actually think this episode is a turning point, for example for Janeway and for Tommy. Those letters do (and in Tom's case would have) play a significant role in their character development.

I haven't seen Killing Game yet, but if the Hirogens are featured AND our heroes are out of uniform, then I'm sure to like it.!
BTW, based on your comment and Mareika's below I might give this ep a quick rewatch before I progress; maybe I'll appreciate the letter part of the plot more. I did like some of the exchanges between characters as they received or anticipated the letters (Tom & B'Elanna, Chakotay & B'Elanna, Chakotay and Janeway), so I'm not sure why it hit me the way it did the first time.

I`m wondering, you didn`t ,mention the scene between Janeway and Chakotay, where Janeway tells him about Marc`s letter. I love this scene, because it`s J/C. ;-)

I did like that scene... I found it touching actually (and now that you mention it I may go back and rewatch). The only reason I didn't mention it was I didn't have a lot of time to post the other day, so I didn't extrapolate or go into detail.

 

[Lynx]

I think "NEMESIS" is a very underrated episode. One of my favorite aspects is the use of the Vori language. It reminded me somewhat of how the Tamarians communicated in TNG's "Darmok".

I wonder if Joe Menosky helped Kenneth Biller with the Vori language...

For some reason I like "Darmok" too!
But the Tamarian language is more difficult to use than the Vori language.

 

[tomalak301]

I saw on Facebook that on this day 20 years ago, Scorpion II Aired. I still think the Scorpion 2 parter might be my favorite finale/premiere tandem in all of Star Trek.

 

[Farscape One]

For some reason I like "Darmok" too!
But the Tamarian language is more difficult to use than the Vori language.

"Darmok" is one of my favorites of TNG.

They speak in metaphors and mythology, which I absolutely loved. The Vori just switched to other words to say what we would say. I still loved the way it was done.

 

[Prax]

One reason I like Nemesis is Brone. I don't know if I've seen the actor anywhere else, but there's something familiar about him. And he's instantly likable.

Here's the opening scene:

BRONE: What's this?
NAMON: We found him in the trunks, a hundred footfalls past Grove Yellow.
BRONE: Arms?
NAMON: None, sir.
BRONE: These colours?
NAMON: We didn't ask.
BRONE: He's no Krady beast, is he?
NAMON: No, sir, but he doesn't bear Vori colours either.
BRONE: Hmm. His glimpse is too tame to be a Kradin.
NAMON: I hadn't fathomed that, sir.
BRONE: Well, fathom it now. He's no nemesis, is he?
NAMON: I'm not certain what he is, sir.
BRONE: Weren't you drilled to fathom the nemesis?
NAMON: Yes, sir.
BRONE: And we abhor none but the nemesis, do we?
NAMON: No, sir. None but the nemesis!
BRONE: Then set him loose. Didn't you hear, Novice?
CHAKOTAY: Thanks.
BRONE: Go take provisions.
NAMON: I'm sorry, sir.
BRONE: Go.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

I haven't seen Killing Game yet, but if the Hirogens are featured AND our heroes are out of uniform, then I'm sure to like it.!

I'm sure you will. It's one of VOY's best two-parters - although two-parters on VOY are always fun. Atm I am making wallpapers for FLESH AND BLOOD - which is a two-parter and surprise, surprise, with the Hirogens. Can't seem to get enough of them.
Prior to THE KILLING GAME you have two more episodes. I am curious about your comments regarding both eps. One stands out in my book but the other one ... less so.
Anyway I don't want to influence you ... so let's hear your thoughts first.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

I saw on Facebook that on this day 20 years ago, Scorpion II Aired. I still think the Scorpion 2 parter might be my favorite finale/premiere tandem in all of Star Trek.

Well, well, well ... look what we have here ... Where have you been hiding, tomalak? Watching DS9 and TNG, no doubt. I miss your old thread about VOY - that one was fun.
Anyway, I couldn't agree more with your comments: SCORPION totally rocks! I've seen it like a hundred times and it is still a very enjoyable piece of science fiction. It is probably one of the (many ) reasons I fell in love with VOY.
The Borg, Species 8472, the introduction of Seven while Kes is still part of the story and of course, above all the very fact that Leonardo da Vinci is also introduced ... these seem to be the ingredients of a good VOY story. Or maybe the ingredients of a good any sci-fi story? Who knows?

 

[tomalak301]

Well, well, well ... look what we have here ... Where have you been hiding, tomalak? Watching DS9 and TNG, no doubt. I miss your old thread about VOY - that one was fun.
Anyway, I couldn't agree more with your comments: SCORPION totally rocks! I've seen it like a hundred times and it is still a very enjoyable piece of science fiction. It is probably one of the (many ) reasons I fell in love with VOY.
The Borg, Species 8472, the introduction of Seven while Kes is still part of the story and of course, above all the very fact that Leonardo da Vinci is also introduced ... these seem to be the ingredients of a good VOY story. Or maybe the ingredients of a good any sci-fi story? Who knows?

I'm still here. I've just posted more in the Discovery forum and general Sci fi.

And yes Scorpion had everything I love about Voyager. Janeway being assertive, Chakotay being assertive, that awesome musical score, and a well conceived alien race in 8472. I just wish more was done with them before they turned "good"

 

[cosmic mouse]

I'm sure you will. It's one of VOY's best two-parters - although two-parters on VOY are always fun. Atm I am making wallpapers for FLESH AND BLOOD - which is a two-parter and surprise, surprise, with the Hirogens. Can't seem to get enough of them.
Prior to THE KILLING GAME you have two more episodes. I am curious about your comments regarding both eps. One stands out in my book but the other one ... less so.
Anyway I don't want to influence you ... so let's hear your thoughts first.

Well, I watched Prey last night and Retrospect this morning... and that one was a re-watch. That was one of the episodes that I randomly picked to watch earlier this year. And I suspect that's the ep you're referring to that you did not find a stand out?
I can hazard a guess as to why, if that is the ep: it focuses on some of the more negative/less desirable personality traits of some of our heroes and/or it exposes some of their weaknesses to us (not necessarily a negative). The Doctor, in particular, I feel this way about, but Seven to a lesser extent as well (although her naïvety, and the fact that the Doc unintentionally manipulated her sort of cast her in a slightly better light I guess). Kovin himself is also a bit sleazy and disreputable, which adds to this element, however there are some interesting aspects to this one: it does give both Seven and the Doctor a bit more flawed qualities, which makes their characters seem more human, which may have been intentional on the part of the writers. It also gave Janeway yet another chance to whip everyone into line at the conclusion, and display her mothering instinct over Seven. That part made me think back to Janeway telling Chakotay about Marc's letter in Hunters, and I wonder if there is a connection between Janeway's increased connection to Seven and the recent loss (or knowledge of that loss) of her fiancee. It seems a very "human" thing to do imo. I appreciate those qualities of this ep, but it isn't my absolute favorite one simply due to some of the weakness and negativity on display... I still really liked it.
FWIW I thought

Spoiler

Kovin was probably innocent

However, I loved Prey. That was a first-time view for me and so far it's my 2nd favorite ep this season after Scorpion. I love the Hirogens and I also quite like species 8472, even though that particular species remains a little aloof just due to the nature of the beast. Both are very powerful (and entertaining/interesting) enemies imo. I loved Chakotay staring down that Hirogen in the corridor... he put him in his place with eye contact alone.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

Well, I watched Prey last night and Retrospect this morning... and that one was a re-watch. That was one of the episodes that I randomly picked to watch earlier this year. And I suspect that's the ep you're referring to that you did not find a stand out?

Spot-on. This is one of the darker episodes to me ... so "un-Voyager" so to speak. It falls into the same category as NEMESIS and especially THE CHUTE.
I actually have no idea what the producers wanted with this episode: to show that your memory can deceive you? To show that someone might take your side just because they like you instead of taking an objective view of the situation? To show that someone might be innocent even if he is pretty irritable (if so why didn't they explicitly say so instead of letting us guess what the real situation was?)? Etc.
Most importantly, though, this ep usually leaves me with an uncomfortable feeling. Not necessarily because of the end ... but because the ep itself is so ... weird (can't find a better word to describe it).
Oh well ... there are 172 VOY eps so having one like this occasionally is fine. I just don't particularly like it, that's all.

That part made me think back to Janeway telling Chakotay about Marc's letter in Hunters, and I wonder if there is a connection between Janeway's increased connection to Seven and the recent loss (or knowledge of that loss) of her fiancee. It seems a very "human" thing to do imo.

This is an interesting idea and although I seriously doubt that the producers thought of this at the time, let's just pretend that this was what happened. It would explain a lot of things.

However, I loved Prey.

Yes, yes, yes! The Hirogen totally rock - best villains ever! PREY is so good, we have everything we need for a good VOY ep: the Hirogens, the Borg, Species 8472, a good conflict between Janeway and Seven and I really love it when our heroes wear the astronauts' costumes (DAY OF HONOR, ONE SMALL STEP and FRIENDSHIP ONE are the other three episodes that spring to mind in which we see them wear those ... are there any more?). Tommyboy's remark to the Hirogen cracks me up all the time ...
I wonder, though, how it is possible that that individual form Species 8472 was left behind ...
On to THE KILLING GAME then. That one is a real gem!

 

[Prax]

Well, I watched Prey last night and Retrospect this morning... and that one was a re-watch. That was one of the episodes that I randomly picked to watch earlier this year. And I suspect that's the ep you're referring to that you did not find a stand out?
I can hazard a guess as to why, if that is the ep: it focuses on some of the more negative/less desirable personality traits of some of our heroes and/or it exposes some of their weaknesses to us (not necessarily a negative). The Doctor, in particular, I feel this way about, but Seven to a lesser extent as well (although her naïvety, and the fact that the Doc unintentionally manipulated her sort of cast her in a slightly better light I guess). Kovin himself is also a bit sleazy and disreputable, which adds to this element, however there are some interesting aspects to this one: it does give both Seven and the Doctor a bit more flawed qualities, which makes their characters seem more human, which may have been intentional on the part of the writers. It also gave Janeway yet another chance to whip everyone into line at the conclusion, and display her mothering instinct over Seven. That part made me think back to Janeway telling Chakotay about Marc's letter in Hunters, and I wonder if there is a connection between Janeway's increased connection to Seven and the recent loss (or knowledge of that loss) of her fiancee. It seems a very "human" thing to do imo. I appreciate those qualities of this ep, but it isn't my absolute favorite one simply due to some of the weakness and negativity on display... I still really liked it.
FWIW I thought

Spoiler

Kovin was probably innocent

However, I loved Prey. That was a first-time view for me and so far it's my 2nd favorite ep this season after Scorpion. I love the Hirogens and I also quite like species 8472, even though that particular species remains a little aloof just due to the nature of the beast. Both are very powerful (and entertaining/interesting) enemies imo. I loved Chakotay staring down that Hirogen in the corridor... he put him in his place with eye contact alone.

Have you watched any more?

 

[cosmic mouse]

Have you watched any more?

I plan on watching a few eps today whilst I do the laundry... The Killing Game is up next.

Spot-on. This is one of the darker episodes to me ... so "un-Voyager" so to speak. It falls into the same category as NEMESIS and especially THE CHUTE.
I actually have no idea what the producers wanted with this episode: to show that your memory can deceive you? To show that someone might take your side just because they like you instead of taking an objective view of the situation? To show that someone might be innocent even if he is pretty irritable (if so why didn't they explicitly say so instead of letting us guess what the real situation was?)? Etc.
Most importantly, though, this ep usually leaves me with an uncomfortable feeling. Not necessarily because of the end ... but because the ep itself is so ... weird (can't find a better word to describe it).
Oh well ... there are 172 VOY eps so having one like this occasionally is fine. I just don't particularly like it, that's all.

This is an interesting idea and although I seriously doubt that the producers thought of this at the time, let's just pretend that this was what happened. It would explain a lot of things.

Yes, yes, yes! The Hirogen totally rock - best villains ever! PREY is so good, we have everything we need for a good VOY ep: the Hirogens, the Borg, Species 8472, a good conflict between Janeway and Seven and I really love it when our heroes wear the astronauts' costumes (DAY OF HONOR, ONE SMALL STEP and FRIENDSHIP ONE are the other three episodes that spring to mind in which we see them wear those ... are there any more?). Tommyboy's remark to the Hirogen cracks me up all the time ...
I wonder, though, how it is possible that that individual form Species 8472 was left behind ...
On to THE KILLING GAME then. That one is a real gem!

My guess is the producers wanted to touch on some of the more negative aspects of humanity in order to advance the characters of 7 and the Doc. They are the two crew members who are striving to be more human and so it makes sense for them to experience negative as well as positive aspects of their humanity as it develops.
I also appreciate that this ep left the ultimate reality open to the viewer... despite what I think in regards to Kovin's innocence another viewer might think the complete opposite and that's fine, and actually to the point of the ep as I see it. This reinforces and balances the disagreeable traits presented by the characters in a way (i.e. we are an imperfect species and that's totally cool...)

Tommyboy's remark to the Hirogen cracks me up all the time ...

Most certainly! I intended to mention this detail before and forgot... that's one of the best quotes yet.

 

[Sophie74656]

Most certainly! I intended to mention this detail before and forgot... that's one of the best quotes yet.

The best Tom moments are two quick scenes in an episode in season 6

 

[cosmic mouse]

The best Tom moments are two quick scenes in an episode in season 6

Ah, you'll have to give me a heads up when I get close to that ep... for now my mouse has relocated from Boston to Jeffries tube 32.


And I really liked the Killing Game, in sort of a Future's End-swashbuckling kind of way. I found it quite entertaining overall: the Hirogens were great, and I liked when the crew finally were all, mostly, privy to what was going on and started to scheme. Neelix as the drunken Klingon was pretty funny as well, plus the holo-Klingons storming in as reinforcements had me in stitches.
Vis-a-vis I liked okay, but it wasn't one of my favorites so far, mainly because I feel like this is ground we've trod over before, and maybe not just once before either, so it didn't have as many memorable characteristics for me...
And the Omega Directive I liked, but not as much as some of the previous eps in s4. I thought the molecule was cool though, as well as Seven's reverence for it, and the fact that she had to basically go against her beliefs in order to honor and fulfill the Captains order. Speaking of which, this ep further advanced that mother-daughter relationship between the two (by virtue of the ending), if that's in fact what the producers are aiming for...

Anyway, good stuff overall!

 

[Sophie74656]

Ah, you'll have to give me a heads up when I get close to that ep... for now my mouse has relocated from Boston to Jeffries tube 32.


And I really liked the Killing Game, in sort of a Future's End-swashbuckling kind of way. I found it quite entertaining overall: the Hirogens were great, and I liked when the crew finally were all, mostly, privy to what was going on and started to scheme. Neelix as the drunken Klingon was pretty funny as well, plus the holo-Klingons storming in as reinforcements had me in stitches.
Vis-a-vis I liked okay, but it wasn't one of my favorites so far, mainly because I feel like this is ground we've trod over before, and maybe not just once before either, so it didn't have as many memorable characteristics for me...
And the Omega Directive I liked, but not as much as some of the previous eps in s4. I thought the molecule was cool though, as well as Seven's reverence for it, and the fact that she had to basically go against her beliefs in order to honor and fulfill the Captains order. Speaking of which, this ep further advanced that mother-daughter relationship between the two (by virtue of the ending), if that's in fact what the producers are aiming for...

Anyway, good stuff overall!

The episode is Tinker Tenor Doctor Spy

 

[Prax]

Ah, you'll have to give me a heads up when I get close to that ep... for now my mouse has relocated from Boston to Jeffries tube 32.


And I really liked the Killing Game, in sort of a Future's End-swashbuckling kind of way. I found it quite entertaining overall: the Hirogens were great, and I liked when the crew finally were all, mostly, privy to what was going on and started to scheme. Neelix as the drunken Klingon was pretty funny as well, plus the holo-Klingons storming in as reinforcements had me in stitches.
Vis-a-vis I liked okay, but it wasn't one of my favorites so far, mainly because I feel like this is ground we've trod over before, and maybe not just once before either, so it didn't have as many memorable characteristics for me...
And the Omega Directive I liked, but not as much as some of the previous eps in s4. I thought the molecule was cool though, as well as Seven's reverence for it, and the fact that she had to basically go against her beliefs in order to honor and fulfill the Captains order. Speaking of which, this ep further advanced that mother-daughter relationship between the two (by virtue of the ending), if that's in fact what the producers are aiming for...

Anyway, good stuff overall!

Killing Game is fun. I like how they cut through bulkheads to expand the holodeck, but I'm not sure how it made B'elanna pregnant, or Neelix a Klingon, or how they changed their memories. Did the Doctor mutilate them? I guess it's pretty easy to unmutilate people in the 24th century.

The Hirogen are completely insane. It's like they captured Voyager(which they were likely hunting for after their last encounters), then found this new toy on board and couldn't get enough of it. I mean, they're dressing up as Germans! It's like introducing a kid from 100 years ago to video games.

Hirogen master: "More Holodeck! Bigger Holodeck!"
Ensign Kim: "bbb-b-but we cannn't. Th-th-the power ggrid..."
*SLAP
Hirogen Master: "More Holodeck! More game! More Hunt!"

Vis-a-Vis is one of those episodes where I get frustrated that the bad guy is getting away with it. I know Janeway has no reason to suspect what "Tom" is about to do to her, but I still get frustrated in the way you get frustrated in horror movies when the so-to-be-victim is totally oblivious to their coming fate.

Not a big fan of Omega Directive. I don't "dislike" it, but I don't like when Janeway gets like that(The way she gets at the beginning). These 3 are average/decent-good episodes, in my opinion.

You're all lined up for the last 4 episodes of the season, which are some of my favorites.

 

[cosmic mouse]

Killing Game is fun. I like how they cut through bulkheads to expand the holodeck, but I'm not sure how it made B'elanna pregnant, or Neelix a Klingon, or how they changed their memories. Did the Doctor mutilate them? I guess it's pretty easy to unmutilate people in the 24th century.

The Hirogen are completely insane. It's like they captured Voyager(which they were likely hunting for after their last encounters), then found this new toy on board and couldn't get enough of it. I mean, they're dressing up as Germans! It's like introducing a kid from 100 years ago to video games.

Vis-a-Vis is one of those episodes where I get frustrated that the bad guy is getting away with it. I know Janeway has no reason to suspect what "Tom" is about to do to her, but I still get frustrated in the way you get frustrated in horror movies when the so-to-be-victim is totally oblivious to their coming fate.

Not a big fan of Omega Directive. I don't "dislike" it, but I don't like when Janeway gets like that(The way she gets at the beginning). These 3 are average/decent-good episodes, in my opinion.

You're all lined up for the last 4 episodes of the season, which are some of my favorites.

Yeah, I'm finding my suspension of disbelief getting a workout with some of these eps, lol. Good thing my love of low-budget, obscure horror movies has prepared me for the onslaught. And I do get the frustration associated with Vis-a-Vis and some of the events in that ep. Mainly, I felt like I'd seen that story before (in a basic sense) ... it brought nothing really novel to the table imo.
Yeah, the Hirogens... gotta love them. They have this no holds-barred attitude that's almost calculated and planned/precise. It's like planned out mayhem without any recourse. That comparison to the kid with the video game is apt.
I'll have to look for that piece you refer to about Janeway in Omega Directive... not recalling it at the moment. She kind of reminded me of my mother in this ep in a couple of instances though, which was mildly unnerving. And her hair is getting shorter and shorter...

 

[Prax]

I'm just referring to the way she gets all intense and serious, but secretive. If a real captain had run across this thing, and knew it was top secret, they would likely be calm and methodical in how they approach the situation, with a calm demeanor. Not act in a way that arouses everyone's curiosity and gets the whole crew talking and spreading rumors. In my own experience, when an incident happens, and it's above my security clearance, Those in the know, or the one in command acts exactly opposite of how she does. A captain knows(or should know) how to project the type of atmosphere they want in their unit or crew.

That's all. It's not a huge issue, and eventually everyone knows anyway. Maybe she subconsciously wanted an excuse for the crew to find out, so she didn't have to go it alone.