VADM Janeway

[Oddish]

CIWS are manifestly inferior to both existing options and basically redundant given the existence of shields.

20th century CIWS, maybe. 24th century equivalent, maybe not. And besides, we KNOW that shields never collapse or lose power.

There's nothing in canon to suggest that pulse phasers can be multi-directional and the fact that the Defiant's dorsal and ventral phasers (which are multi-directional) aren't pulse phasers somewhat argues against that.

Then mount them on turrets.

The Galaxy class was already fitted for Danube-class runabouts, so less capable impulse-only craft that would therefore have vastly inferior shielding seems counter-intuitive.

Why would their shields be inferior? I never said these ships wouldn't have a powerplant, they just wouldn't have the very bulky apparatus needed to form a warp field. You replace that space with weapons and shield generators, even a runabout sized ship could be a force to be reckoned with... it just can't go to warp.

Jellico was a rigid, pompous control freak who would order most of the improvements ripped out as "unreliable" or run the crew the crew into the ground before the first engagement "fixing" imaginary flaws.

Then you get a person with Jellico's "kick butt take names" mentality who's been trained on (and trusts) the new design.

As noted above, essentially pointless, especially by the TNG era, given the existence of shields (arguably the earlier ball turrets are CIWS or at least a hybrid of CIWS and autocannon).

In a vessel built for combat, a tertiary defense system makes sense, even if it's not quite as effective as shields or reliable as armor. The torpedo that never reaches your shields never drains them.

I've already touched on the suicidal/criminally negligent aspects of that idea above, so I'll just reiterate that the runabout is about the largest auxiliary craft which could "parasite" on the Galaxy-class or similar.

A Galaxy class also carries an arboretum, a school, a lounge, gobs of science labs, and crew quarters like luxury suites. And, reportedly, a dolphin tank. Eliminate some of that, and you can enlarge the shuttlebays.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Why would their shields be inferior? I never said these ships wouldn't have a powerplant, they just wouldn't have the very bulky apparatus needed to form a warp field. You replace that space with weapons and shield generators, even a runabout sized ship could be a force to be reckoned with... it just can't go to warp.

Because they don't have a warp core. Which on the Defiant (the only dedicated warship of Starfleet design that we have extensive details on) provide power for the shields to the extent that the ship is unable to maintain shields without it.

In a vessel built for combat, a tertiary defense system makes sense, even if it's not quite as effective as shields or reliable as armor. The torpedo that never reaches your shields never drains them.

But torpedo sized objects are notoriously difficult to track and destroy canonically. I'd also suggest that a CIWS that targets outside the shield envelope is even more redundant than otherwise as it isn't doing (badly) anything that the regular phaser banks aren't theoritically capable of anyway with the right software as most late 24th century ships already have a similar or wider firing arc than CIWS anyway.

A Galaxy class also carries an arboretum, a school, a lounge, gobs of science labs, and crew quarters like luxury suites. And, reportedly, a dolphin tank. Eliminate some of that, and you can enlarge the shuttlebays.

But at the cost of the frame's ability to be a multi-role platform rather than a "one trick pony" warship.

I'd also suggest that the theoretical benefits wouldn't be enough to allow for "several Defiant-sized vessels" as you suggest, given that a single Defiant-class is probably a similar mass to the entire Battle Section and you'd need to hollow out most of four or five entire decks of the Saucer to allow for the equivalent of even the minimalist pod bay on the NX class for one ship the size of a Defiant.

However, I will concede that your plan could be used to increase the number of runabout or heavy shuttles carried if desired.

 

[Oddish]

However, I will concede that your plan could be used to increase the number of runabout or heavy shuttles carried if desired.

In turn I will admit that a warp capable ship with Defiant level firepower might require 5 decks or so for the hangars. But, if you have a warp core (for power) but no nacelles or other warp junk. Reduce the pulse phasers from 4 to 2, use photon torpedoes instead of quantum (and have fewer tubes). You might not quite have Defiant level juice, but you have a formidable craft that might fit onto a three-deck hangar, and would seriously multiply your firepower.

But at the cost of the frame's ability to be a multi-role platform rather than a "one trick pony" warship.

My point. I'm not talking about militarizing a Galaxy class ship, I'm talking about building a warship of that size from the inside out. You don't rip out the school, quarters, dolphin tank, etc... you never had them to begin with.

 

[Tuskin38]

My point. I'm not talking about militarizing a Galaxy class ship, I'm talking about building a warship of that size from the inside out. You don't rip out the school, quarters, dolphin tank, etc... you never had them to begin with.

So probably the Enterprise-D seen in 'Yesterday's Enterprise'

Picard called it a battleship.

 

[F. King Daniel]

From what I was able to gather, the Dauntless saucer has about 8 to 10 decks... add in another 4 or 5 decks to the secondary hull, and you get something the size of an Intrepid class starship or just a bit smaller.

Here's the cutaway, seen on-screen in episode 10 and 15.

It's not without flaws, the weird concave saucer rear is entirely missing. And it can be hard to tell a dramatic effect shot (the Dauntless/Protostar scenes very much recalled the Enterprise/Vengeance ones) from one meant to seriously compare vessel sizes.

Or if the guys doing the LCARS were on the same page as the guys scaling the ship models for VFX.

 

[The Wormhole]

You don't rip out the school, quarters, dolphin tank, etc... you never had them to begin with.

So probably the Enterprise-D seen in 'Yesterday's Enterprise'

Picard called it a battleship.

Although, the Enterprise D in Yesterday's Enterprise still had the dolphin tank. Indeed, Yesterday's Enterprise is actually the first onscreen mention of Cetacean Ops and prior to Lower Decks, the only time onscreen it was referenced by name. There's a later episode in TNG, I think it's The Perfect Mate, which makes a brief throwaway reference to "the dolphins."

 

[Deks]

Here's the cutaway, seen on-screen in episode 10 and 15.

It's not without flaws, the weird concave saucer rear is entirely missing. And it can be hard to tell a dramatic effect shot (the Dauntless/Protostar scenes very much recalled the Enterprise/Vengeance ones) from one meant to seriously compare vessel sizes.

Or if the guys doing the LCARS were on the same page as the guys scaling the ship models for VFX.

I'm aware of the MSD in question.
Problem is that EXTERNALLY, the ship looks like it has more decks than that (around 8 - 10 decks in the saucer section alone)... and is actually closer to Intrepid class in size.

I suppose though that the Protostar being only 4 decks might in fact fit into the perspective we saw... but those were rather odd/dramatic camera angles.

 

[Galaxy]

There are two instances where Starfleet ships use their phaser arrays in what could be considered CIWS, in that they fire bursts from individual segments of the phaser arrays instead of the ol' swing around.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

1) TNG: Conundrum

The 2nd is the Enterprise-E in Nemesis.

But torpedo sized objects are notoriously difficult to track and destroy canonically.

I would say the opposite. The episode of Prodigy from 3 weeks ago, is one of a few (DS9 Way of the Warrior, and ST VI are the other two that come to mind) where we see an indication of active torpedo guidance. 99% of torpedoes fired in Trek behave like unguided rocket, they just fly in a straight line, they hardly ever turn around to home in on a target that they miss. Should be easy to pick off.
One thing I actually want them to retcon. Torpedoes should behave like the drones from Stargate.

Edited for a better example video.

 

[Deks]

I would say the opposite. The episode of Prodigy from 3 weeks ago, is one of a few (DS9 Way of the Warrior, and ST VI are the other two that come to mind) where we see an indication of active torpedo guidance. 99% of torpedoes fired in Trek behave like unguided rocket, they just fly in a straight line, they hardly ever turn around to home in on a target that they miss. Should be easy to pick off.
One thing I actually want them to retcon. Torpedoes should behave like the drones from Stargate.

Edited for a better example video.

The torpedoes DO have the capability for self-guidance and adjusting their trajectory to hit their intended targets... we've seen them do this on various occasions.
My guess is that 99% of the time we see torpedoes just going in a straight line because the enemy ships are usually found in that direction.
Plus, torpedoes are capable of FTL. Can you imagine evading that at impulse?
You can't... not even phasers can be technically avoided because impulse would be slower than light speed... only in cases of manual targeting have we actually seen ships evading phasers and/or torpedoes... but that has more to do with accuracy of a biological organism controlling the targeting system (hence why Trek ships have auto-targeting on at all times - manual targeting is only used when the main system suffers damage).

Anyway, I do agree torpedoes in Trek should behave more like drones from Stargate... in fact, they should be capable of avoiding enemy weapons fire too and do extreme maneuvers in tight spaces.

Trek ships usually have a plethora of advanced technology at their disposal. I wouldn't be surprised that part of the reason we see some torpedoes 'miss' their targets and proceed in a straight line would be because of countermeasures which confuse their sensors.

 

[Tuskin38]

Plus, torpedoes are capable of FTL.

they're capable of staying at warp if fired at warp, they can't go to warp by themselves.

 

[Deks]

they're capable of staying at warp if fired at warp, they can't go to warp by themselves.

They could be fired from a torpedo tube to Warp speed by a starship or a station though... it was done before in TNG with most of the torpedo's internal circuitry removed to hold a person and a life support system.

And being able to stay at warp if fired at warp also technically makes them FTL capable.

Degrees of capability.

I wonder if SF was able to make torpedoes which CAN achieve Warp by themselves eventually.

 

[AnimationAdmiral]

they're capable of staying at warp if fired at warp, they can't go to warp by themselves.

I’m not sure if that’s ever been stated in canon. I swear I’ve seen instances that contradict that onscreen, too, where a torpedo catches up to a ship at warp and knocks it out.

 

[Wouter]

No real log this time (for reasons that are clear to anyone who watched the last two episodes), only a message from the computer that no log could be recorded.

 

[Wouter]

Something else about Janeway: https://va.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_rkoxpgJi0P1zoamxy_720.mp4

It's a short video where Kate Mulgrew answers a fan question "is there an episode of Prodigy that you're most looking forward to fans seeing?" with

Spoiler: light spoilers concerning future episode

"There's an episode about Chakotay. That's very good. That's full of every conceivable true emotion Janeway could ever have. It's a deep dive into her guilt, and her regret, and her courage."

No doubt, she is talking about a season 2 episode. Chances are she is talking about VA Janeway, though it could also be about both versions of Janeway.

 

[Deks]

The fight between the Odyssey and the Jem'Hadar may be somewhat misleading, as those vessels could fire from a distance because their weapons could just pass through the shields. Phaser fire from point blank range is probably more potent than fire from (much) longer distances, and the Defiant tended to come very close to fire its pulse phasers.

Actually, that's not the reason.
The Dominon was acquiring intelligence on all AQ powers since DS9 crew opened the Wormhole.
Remember that the Dominion also destroyed and captured various AQ vessels as was learned in that same episode when the Jem'Hadaar went to DS9 to inform them they captured Sisko and Quark (and since the Dominion takes prisoners, it stands to reason they interrogated them... and the starship databases and technology were thoroughly examined). The Dominion also destroyed New Bajor colony in the GQ - I'm sure they interrogated them too before killing everyone.

In essence, the Dominion had at least 1 year to adapt their ships and counter AQ weapons and find a way to bypass SF shields with their weapons (so it had less to do with Dominion having superior technology - they just had better intel).

 

[Wouter]

What I mean is that because their weapons could penetrate/ignore the shields at that time, they could fire from further and still have a pretty devastating effect, while the weapons of the Odyssey were less potent at that range because the Jem'Hadar shields were working. That is, if you subscribe to phasers losing hitting power if they are fired over longer distances.

In that case, the Jem'Hadar fighters would need to close the distance to hurt a Galaxy class ship with effective shields, and they would have to expose themselves to much more potent return fire in turn.

 

[Iamnotspock]

Only at Spock's (the ship's Captain) request.

Per Starfleet regulations, over Kirk trying to spare Spock's non-existent ego. "If we are to go on actual duty, it is clear that the senior officer on board must assume command."